5 ms·

Well I have something to share precisely about that. Was in 2001 prior to 9/11 in south Indiana. I applied to a factory. And another one. And another one. Noth

Well I have something to share precisely about that. Was in 2001 prior to 9/11 in south Indiana. I applied to a factory. And another one. And another one. Nothing. No bites. I then found work at a gas station Subway across the first factory. Our primary business were the factories. 9/11 happened. Within days, the factories shut down. We at subway were like "WTF happened?" Cause we were staffed like normal for rush. Then we talked to one of the workers who stayed - there was a huge implicit threat that INS was going to make nationwide sweeps deporting all illegals. So, they left ahead of time. And "gee golly" the factories were now hiring and one said they had better wages. Again, its correlation kind of.. Well not really. Supply and demand is a pretty hard rule. And when you have undocumented, working for less than minimum wage, and foregoing regulations on employees, is anyone surprised? I know I understood the blue collar hatred of illegals. I've been on the receiving end of that. Not that its right, mind you- but understanding others viewpoints is the start of fixing them. (Fixed spacing, from making comment on phone.)

sliverstorm 9y ago
I thought blue collar often referred to e.g. welding, plumbing, electrician, etc. Would an undocumented illegal really be hired as a TIG welder? Or are those jobs just a small part of "blue collar".
- crankylinuxuser 9y ago
  What you're talking of is skilled and state certified blue collar. Many in this area have legal government protections to do this work. There's a whole class of blue collar under that. Line workers, food prep, factory pickers, non-medical health aide, framers, concrete pourers, roofers... I know when my parents had their current house built, they had a bunch of hispanic people working on the house. When my parents went to take pictures, they beat feet to get out of any photo. My moms pretty sure they said something about INS. But who knows. My parent's didn't care too much that likely "illegal to work peoples" were building their house. It was cheaper than the other options.
golergka 9y ago
> I know I understood the blue collar hatred of illegals. ... Not that its right, mind you Honest question: why not? I have a lot of members of extended family who have gone through a LOT of pain to become legal immigrants in the US, and they hate the illegals exactly because illegals have broken the rules that they have payed so hard to follow. If an agent A sacrifices it's profits to follow the rules and agent B just violates them, why shouldn't A hate B? (You can imagine A and B being the company who sacrifices profits to follow environment regulation and another company who just forges emission tests, for example).
- crankylinuxuser 9y ago
  Because they're people too, and trying to survive in this perverse game of "Capitalism". I value human rights more than I value state or federal "rights". And in this case, there's more than enough resources to go around. And a second derivative answer - not everyone who came here had a choice.
  - golergka 9y ago
    Calling a game "perverse" is a classic tactic too use when you're losing and can't own up to it. There may be "enough" resources – but they aren't yours to go anywhere. And freedom to do whatever you please with the things you own is the most fundamental human right of all.
    - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
      > Calling a game "perverse" is a classic tactic too use when you're losing and can't own up to it. Oh please. You damned straight it's perverse. How is this not perverse when a director of an agency on aging has to tell elderly clients "Sorry, there's no more money for food this week." ? How is this not perverse when homeless try to get shelter for the night, and are turned away because there's no beds? How is this not perverse when we train upcoming high school students to agree to crushing scholastic debt with no recourse or bankruptcy protection? How is this not perverse that we don't have a true medical system across the USA? Instead we tie it to employment, thus continuing the "Work or Die" ideal, quite literally. > There may be "enough" resources – but they aren't yours to go anywhere. And freedom to do whatever you please with the things you own is the most fundamental human right of all. Sure, I'll accept that for simple possessions. Clothes, personal effects, lodging, transportation. But whereas you're talking of personal stuff, I'm talking about the top income whose top 3 people own collectively more than the bottom 50% of the world. I guess when you can afford to amass money, game the system, buy laws/legislators and rig everything, you do end up with more money. But "it was hard earned". Yeah, uh huh. Keep telling yourself that.
bluthru 9y ago
>I know I understood the blue collar hatred of illegals. I've been on the receiving end of that. Not that its right, mind you- but understanding others viewpoints is the start of fixing them. Of course it's right to hate people who have no respect for your country's laws and have a meaningful negative impact on your quality of life. You're trying to make it into a racial issue to excuse people who make life worse for blue collar workers. It's also why they hate politicians: they aren't making decisions that benefit blue collar workers. (Starting with NAFTA.) More than half of immigrants are on welfare: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/09/01/immigrant-welfare-use-report/71517072/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/09/01/immigr... Who knows how crazy the expense is for illegals.
- hotgoldminer 9y ago
  Or maybe the employers should quit hiring them?
  - bluthru 9y ago
    It's a huge problem that requires enforcement at all levels. People should stop abusing opioids, but we should also make sure they don't cross the border into our country.
    - hotgoldminer 9y ago
      I think we should legalize and regulate personally.
- dang 9y ago
  > Of course it's right to hate people who have no respect for your This crosses into political ranting which is definitely not what we want here. Thoughtful discussion, please, or nothing. We've had to warn you about this before. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - bluthru 9y ago

sliverstorm 9y ago

I thought blue collar often referred to e.g. welding, plumbing, electrician, etc. Would an undocumented illegal really be hired as a TIG welder? Or are those jobs just a small part of "blue collar".

crankylinuxuser 9y ago
What you're talking of is skilled and state certified blue collar. Many in this area have legal government protections to do this work. There's a whole class of blue collar under that. Line workers, food prep, factory pickers, non-medical health aide, framers, concrete pourers, roofers... I know when my parents had their current house built, they had a bunch of hispanic people working on the house. When my parents went to take pictures, they beat feet to get out of any photo. My moms pretty sure they said something about INS. But who knows. My parent's didn't care too much that likely "illegal to work peoples" were building their house. It was cheaper than the other options.

golergka 9y ago

> I know I understood the blue collar hatred of illegals. ... Not that its right, mind you Honest question: why not? I have a lot of members of extended family who have gone through a LOT of pain to become legal immigrants in the US, and they hate the illegals exactly because illegals have broken the rules that they have payed so hard to follow. If an agent A sacrifices it's profits to follow the rules and agent B just violates them, why shouldn't A hate B? (You can imagine A and B being the company who sacrifices profits to follow environment regulation and another company who just forges emission tests, for example).

crankylinuxuser 9y ago
Because they're people too, and trying to survive in this perverse game of "Capitalism". I value human rights more than I value state or federal "rights". And in this case, there's more than enough resources to go around. And a second derivative answer - not everyone who came here had a choice.
- golergka 9y ago
  Calling a game "perverse" is a classic tactic too use when you're losing and can't own up to it. There may be "enough" resources – but they aren't yours to go anywhere. And freedom to do whatever you please with the things you own is the most fundamental human right of all.
  - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
    > Calling a game "perverse" is a classic tactic too use when you're losing and can't own up to it. Oh please. You damned straight it's perverse. How is this not perverse when a director of an agency on aging has to tell elderly clients "Sorry, there's no more money for food this week." ? How is this not perverse when homeless try to get shelter for the night, and are turned away because there's no beds? How is this not perverse when we train upcoming high school students to agree to crushing scholastic debt with no recourse or bankruptcy protection? How is this not perverse that we don't have a true medical system across the USA? Instead we tie it to employment, thus continuing the "Work or Die" ideal, quite literally. > There may be "enough" resources – but they aren't yours to go anywhere. And freedom to do whatever you please with the things you own is the most fundamental human right of all. Sure, I'll accept that for simple possessions. Clothes, personal effects, lodging, transportation. But whereas you're talking of personal stuff, I'm talking about the top income whose top 3 people own collectively more than the bottom 50% of the world. I guess when you can afford to amass money, game the system, buy laws/legislators and rig everything, you do end up with more money. But "it was hard earned". Yeah, uh huh. Keep telling yourself that.

bluthru 9y ago

>I know I understood the blue collar hatred of illegals. I've been on the receiving end of that. Not that its right, mind you- but understanding others viewpoints is the start of fixing them. Of course it's right to hate people who have no respect for your country's laws and have a meaningful negative impact on your quality of life. You're trying to make it into a racial issue to excuse people who make life worse for blue collar workers. It's also why they hate politicians: they aren't making decisions that benefit blue collar workers. (Starting with NAFTA.) More than half of immigrants are on welfare: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/09/01/immigrant-welfare-use-report/71517072/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/09/01/immigr... Who knows how crazy the expense is for illegals.

hotgoldminer 9y ago
Or maybe the employers should quit hiring them?
- bluthru 9y ago
  It's a huge problem that requires enforcement at all levels. People should stop abusing opioids, but we should also make sure they don't cross the border into our country.
  - hotgoldminer 9y ago
    I think we should legalize and regulate personally.
dang 9y ago
> Of course it's right to hate people who have no respect for your This crosses into political ranting which is definitely not what we want here. Thoughtful discussion, please, or nothing. We've had to warn you about this before. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- bluthru 9y ago