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I think there is some truth to what we're both saying. At my particular company, the koolaid has always been about how innovate and exciting the work is. But y

I think there is some truth to what we're both saying. At my particular company, the koolaid has always been about how innovate and exciting the work is. But you get in and spend a lot of your time fixing bugs and working on old, monolithic codebases. People want to make a difference, employers sell the vision, and then there's this mis-match and you have the disengaged worker. I think the problem is the reality that most software jobs need skilled workers, but skilled workers are often seeking enough intellectual stimulation from their jobs to make a difference, and a lot of this work isn't the the type of life-changing envisioned.

toyg 9y ago
> the reality that most software jobs need skilled workers It's not just skill, it's also a level of creativity that one needs to do things like programming. And that creativity is often absent when the work is too boring.
- dionidium 9y ago
  A lot of people reading this have no doubt bought into this (conveniently flattering) idea that they're creative people doing very difficult work -- and surely some of you really are! -- but a lot of us are just connecting databases to javascript front-ends. It's not composing a symphony. I assure you it can be done at 9AM when you're a little tired. Whether or not you should have to be at work at 9AM is another matter, but this idea that you can't possibly get anything useful done unless you're in the zone has been oversold.
logfromblammo 9y ago
I think the problem is that starting in the mid-70s, companies have been continuously devaluing their human workers. Before that, it was possible to take a job after graduation and stay with the same company until retirement. A worker's loyalty to the company was rewarded in kind, with the company's loyalty to the worker. People got raises and promotions. They grew roots. Now, there is zero corporate loyalty. If you can't predict a profit for this quarter for your specific individual contribution, regardless of how hard you can work, you're fired. But you will come crawling back when we need you again, won't you? The workers have responded. If the company stops making the work worthwhile, the worker will slack off or jump ship. If the company force-feeds its Flavor-Ade, the employees will just puke it up as soon as it's safe to do so. If the company tells baldfaced lies about itself, the employees smile and nod, while thinking about the rude gestures they would like to be making. The "lack of engagement" is because the employees know that management cares about them not at all, but the forms must still be honored in order to receive the paycheck. In short, your company is bullshit and the workers hate it; they are just using it to get what they need and will ditch it the instant that a better deal comes along. We are all mercenaries now. We will disobey whenever it's more convenient for us, and we think we can get away with it. Because the company executives are just our bosses, not our friends or our leaders or our prophets. If they fire us, we move on to the next bosses just like them. We're not going to bust our ass to earn them another dollar. Maybe if we are freshly fallen off the back of the turnip truck, we will go the extra mile, but it doesn't take long for those folks to learn. So the disengaged worker is the default. We learned from our elders, who were forcibly disengaged by their employers. And since my fortunes are not tied to those of my employer in any meaningful way, I will not stick around to help bail out a sinking ship. If you're going down, I'm not even going to plug the leak and call for help. I'll just grab a lifeboat and be on my way, thanks. It will probably even be an even smoother ride, as I won't have to worry about any rising tides raising my boat.
watwut 9y ago
The thing is, skilled smart people who don't mind spend their time fixing bugs and working on old codebase exist. Especially if the company allows them to have work life balance so that they can have hobbies or spend time with families and what not. The problem is that a programmer described above would not be hired by your company and simultaneously wont recognize your company as a good place for him from job posting. Even admitting that you dont mind fixing bugs is other peoples code might make you sound as lesser programmer in current culture. Otherwise said, there is mismatch between what companies need and what they reward.

toyg 9y ago

> the reality that most software jobs need skilled workers It's not just skill, it's also a level of creativity that one needs to do things like programming. And that creativity is often absent when the work is too boring.

dionidium 9y ago
A lot of people reading this have no doubt bought into this (conveniently flattering) idea that they're creative people doing very difficult work -- and surely some of you really are! -- but a lot of us are just connecting databases to javascript front-ends. It's not composing a symphony. I assure you it can be done at 9AM when you're a little tired. Whether or not you should have to be at work at 9AM is another matter, but this idea that you can't possibly get anything useful done unless you're in the zone has been oversold.

logfromblammo 9y ago

I think the problem is that starting in the mid-70s, companies have been continuously devaluing their human workers. Before that, it was possible to take a job after graduation and stay with the same company until retirement. A worker's loyalty to the company was rewarded in kind, with the company's loyalty to the worker. People got raises and promotions. They grew roots. Now, there is zero corporate loyalty. If you can't predict a profit for this quarter for your specific individual contribution, regardless of how hard you can work, you're fired. But you will come crawling back when we need you again, won't you? The workers have responded. If the company stops making the work worthwhile, the worker will slack off or jump ship. If the company force-feeds its Flavor-Ade, the employees will just puke it up as soon as it's safe to do so. If the company tells baldfaced lies about itself, the employees smile and nod, while thinking about the rude gestures they would like to be making. The "lack of engagement" is because the employees know that management cares about them not at all, but the forms must still be honored in order to receive the paycheck. In short, your company is bullshit and the workers hate it; they are just using it to get what they need and will ditch it the instant that a better deal comes along. We are all mercenaries now. We will disobey whenever it's more convenient for us, and we think we can get away with it. Because the company executives are just our bosses, not our friends or our leaders or our prophets. If they fire us, we move on to the next bosses just like them. We're not going to bust our ass to earn them another dollar. Maybe if we are freshly fallen off the back of the turnip truck, we will go the extra mile, but it doesn't take long for those folks to learn. So the disengaged worker is the default. We learned from our elders, who were forcibly disengaged by their employers. And since my fortunes are not tied to those of my employer in any meaningful way, I will not stick around to help bail out a sinking ship. If you're going down, I'm not even going to plug the leak and call for help. I'll just grab a lifeboat and be on my way, thanks. It will probably even be an even smoother ride, as I won't have to worry about any rising tides raising my boat.

watwut 9y ago

The thing is, skilled smart people who don't mind spend their time fixing bugs and working on old codebase exist. Especially if the company allows them to have work life balance so that they can have hobbies or spend time with families and what not. The problem is that a programmer described above would not be hired by your company and simultaneously wont recognize your company as a good place for him from job posting. Even admitting that you dont mind fixing bugs is other peoples code might make you sound as lesser programmer in current culture. Otherwise said, there is mismatch between what companies need and what they reward.