8 ms·

The core problem with trusted computing is that users are never allowed to install their own root certificate. My grandmother should be able to install a root t

by ynniv 9y ago

The core problem with trusted computing is that users are never allowed to install their own root certificate. My grandmother should be able to install a root that someone she trusts controls, which will include but not be limited to the OS vendor.

dpark 9y ago
How would that accomplish anything? Are you going to sign the latest Firefox for her yourself?
- vetinari 9y ago
  In the world of Linux distribution, they can have multiple independent repositories. When adding another one, you usually import their PGP key to establish trust. When you install Google Chrome on Linux, you will add another repository that will be responsible for further Google Chrome updates. In the Android world, multiple app stores exist. There are stores by Amazon, Yandex, Baidu, etc. If Apple wanted, similar mechanism could be made for iOS too.
  - salvar 9y ago
    > In the Android world, multiple app stores exist. There are stores by Amazon, Yandex, Baidu, etc. Do you think non-technical users regard this as a positive or a negative?
    - vetinari 9y ago
      Good thing then, than in other areas of life we don't limit ourselves to lowest common denominator. Imagine, if economy or politics worked only according to the naive users. But to answer your question: they would get used to it. Just like to multiple tv channels or multiple car brands.
      - salvar 9y ago
        I could not disagree more with this view on designing for usability, but to each their own.
      - tzahola 9y ago
        Though politics does cater for the lowest common denominator...
        vetinari 9y ago
        ... by smokes and mirrors, thus selling the appearances, not by inner working.
    - chappi42 9y ago
      It wouldn't matter as non-technical users would use the default store as today.
  - brisance 9y ago
    I'm sorry but this is hypocrisy at its worst. You say that Apple is doing this for its own financial interest yet on the other hand Yandex, Baidu, Google, Facebook and all the other companies also have to obey local laws, and are just as bad if not worse since their system of persistent user tracking is far more insidious. Don't like Apple? Don't buy their products. Your involvement with them ends there. Don't like Google? You can't avoid them no matter what OS you are using, no matter what browser you're using etc.
    - vetinari 9y ago
      > I'm sorry but this is hypocrisy at its worst. You must elaborate that more, because I can't see it. > Yandex, Baidu, Google, Facebook and all the other companies also have to obey local laws, Sure, but the option of third party app stores opens also option of sideloading. In the case of Apple, when Apple says no, you are without the app, period. > and are just as bad if not worse since their system of persistent user tracking is far more insidious. Not sure about their tracking, but they do not have an equivalent of Play Services on the devices. If you want to be really sure, use F-Droid or apps stores with the principles of F-Droid. > Don't like Google? You can't avoid them no matter what OS you are using, no matter what browser you're using etc. That's not true. When you use Google Search, Gmail or Youtube, it's you who entered the URL into the location bar. You can stop doing that exactly the same way, like you can not purchase Apple products.
      - brisance 9y ago
        >Sure, but the option of third party app stores opens also option of sideloading. In the case of Apple, when Apple says no, you are without the app, period. This is a non-issue that people have brought up countless times. First of all, are we in agreement that app stores and other legal entities have to obey local laws? So your point is moot. Side loading is possible on iOS. You don’t even need to own a Mac to develop for iOS. [1,2,3,4] There is also the open web to fall back on. And you are incorrect about user tracking. Just a day ago Google was caught tracking users even when location services are turned off. [5] And please educate yourself about modern ad tracking [6] [1] https://www.outsystems.com https://www.outsystems.com [2] https://www.xamarin.com https://www.xamarin.com [3] https://cordova.apache.org https://cordova.apache.org [4] https://www.xojo.com https://www.xojo.com [5] https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locations-even-when-location-services-are-disabled/ https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locatio... [6] https://donttrack.us/ https://donttrack.us/
salvar 9y ago
"What is a root certificate?" - All grandmothers everywhere
- ynniv 9y ago
  "Hey grandma, run this and click Ok. Nevermind, just let me see it for a minute." Don't be a ridiculous strawman, everyone has friends or family they trust that are better aligned to their cause than multinational hardware vendors.
  - bskap 9y ago
    Everyone? They all have people that they trust, and at least one of those people is tech-savvy enough to evaluate root certificates?
  - pilif 9y ago
    How do you make sure that grandma only does this if you tell her but not if the app she wants to watch that movie in or that email with your brother's address in the from field tell her to?
  - SAI_Peregrinus 9y ago
    "Hey grandma, you won a new iPad! Just click here, then click ok in the box that pops up! Free iPad!"
chakalakasp 9y ago
"My grandmother should be able to install a root" She can, it just yields plants, not apps. In all seriousness, this was an unintentionally hilarious comment. You can be against walled gardens, but one of best arguments for their existence is because grandmas in general can't be trusted to install root certs.

by ynniv 9y ago

dpark 9y ago

How would that accomplish anything? Are you going to sign the latest Firefox for her yourself?

vetinari 9y ago
In the world of Linux distribution, they can have multiple independent repositories. When adding another one, you usually import their PGP key to establish trust. When you install Google Chrome on Linux, you will add another repository that will be responsible for further Google Chrome updates. In the Android world, multiple app stores exist. There are stores by Amazon, Yandex, Baidu, etc. If Apple wanted, similar mechanism could be made for iOS too.
- salvar 9y ago
  > In the Android world, multiple app stores exist. There are stores by Amazon, Yandex, Baidu, etc. Do you think non-technical users regard this as a positive or a negative?
  - vetinari 9y ago
    Good thing then, than in other areas of life we don't limit ourselves to lowest common denominator. Imagine, if economy or politics worked only according to the naive users. But to answer your question: they would get used to it. Just like to multiple tv channels or multiple car brands.
    - salvar 9y ago
      I could not disagree more with this view on designing for usability, but to each their own.
    - tzahola 9y ago
      Though politics does cater for the lowest common denominator...
      - vetinari 9y ago
        ... by smokes and mirrors, thus selling the appearances, not by inner working.
  - chappi42 9y ago
    It wouldn't matter as non-technical users would use the default store as today.
- brisance 9y ago
  I'm sorry but this is hypocrisy at its worst. You say that Apple is doing this for its own financial interest yet on the other hand Yandex, Baidu, Google, Facebook and all the other companies also have to obey local laws, and are just as bad if not worse since their system of persistent user tracking is far more insidious. Don't like Apple? Don't buy their products. Your involvement with them ends there. Don't like Google? You can't avoid them no matter what OS you are using, no matter what browser you're using etc.
  - vetinari 9y ago
    > I'm sorry but this is hypocrisy at its worst. You must elaborate that more, because I can't see it. > Yandex, Baidu, Google, Facebook and all the other companies also have to obey local laws, Sure, but the option of third party app stores opens also option of sideloading. In the case of Apple, when Apple says no, you are without the app, period. > and are just as bad if not worse since their system of persistent user tracking is far more insidious. Not sure about their tracking, but they do not have an equivalent of Play Services on the devices. If you want to be really sure, use F-Droid or apps stores with the principles of F-Droid. > Don't like Google? You can't avoid them no matter what OS you are using, no matter what browser you're using etc. That's not true. When you use Google Search, Gmail or Youtube, it's you who entered the URL into the location bar. You can stop doing that exactly the same way, like you can not purchase Apple products.
    - brisance 9y ago
      >Sure, but the option of third party app stores opens also option of sideloading. In the case of Apple, when Apple says no, you are without the app, period. This is a non-issue that people have brought up countless times. First of all, are we in agreement that app stores and other legal entities have to obey local laws? So your point is moot. Side loading is possible on iOS. You don’t even need to own a Mac to develop for iOS. [1,2,3,4] There is also the open web to fall back on. And you are incorrect about user tracking. Just a day ago Google was caught tracking users even when location services are turned off. [5] And please educate yourself about modern ad tracking [6] [1] https://www.outsystems.com https://www.outsystems.com [2] https://www.xamarin.com https://www.xamarin.com [3] https://cordova.apache.org https://cordova.apache.org [4] https://www.xojo.com https://www.xojo.com [5] https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locations-even-when-location-services-are-disabled/ https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locatio... [6] https://donttrack.us/ https://donttrack.us/

salvar 9y ago

"What is a root certificate?" - All grandmothers everywhere

ynniv 9y ago
"Hey grandma, run this and click Ok. Nevermind, just let me see it for a minute." Don't be a ridiculous strawman, everyone has friends or family they trust that are better aligned to their cause than multinational hardware vendors.
- bskap 9y ago
  Everyone? They all have people that they trust, and at least one of those people is tech-savvy enough to evaluate root certificates?
- pilif 9y ago
  How do you make sure that grandma only does this if you tell her but not if the app she wants to watch that movie in or that email with your brother's address in the from field tell her to?
- SAI_Peregrinus 9y ago
  "Hey grandma, you won a new iPad! Just click here, then click ok in the box that pops up! Free iPad!"

chakalakasp 9y ago

"My grandmother should be able to install a root" She can, it just yields plants, not apps. In all seriousness, this was an unintentionally hilarious comment. You can be against walled gardens, but one of best arguments for their existence is because grandmas in general can't be trusted to install root certs.