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Maybe there are some engagement issues? Do people feel connected to the work and to their peers? I've observed increases in this type of behavior when things a

Maybe there are some engagement issues? Do people feel connected to the work and to their peers? I've observed increases in this type of behavior when things aren't going so well. When people feel like they are shipping software that makes a difference, they want to be there. If it's only this individual, then it probably speaks more to their behavior than anything systemic. But if it is others too, I would look more broadly.

dionidium 9y ago
Setting aside my particular company, your response is just more evidence of the culture change I'm talking about. Not every job is going to engage you or enable you to make the kind of difference you want to make in the world. The notion that this is a valid excuse for telling your boss, "hey, pops, I'm not feeling engaged this morning, gonna be in later" is a new one. Maybe that's a good thing. Maybe not. But it's definitely a different thing.
- Y7ZCQtNo39 9y ago
  I think there is some truth to what we're both saying. At my particular company, the koolaid has always been about how innovate and exciting the work is. But you get in and spend a lot of your time fixing bugs and working on old, monolithic codebases. People want to make a difference, employers sell the vision, and then there's this mis-match and you have the disengaged worker. I think the problem is the reality that most software jobs need skilled workers, but skilled workers are often seeking enough intellectual stimulation from their jobs to make a difference, and a lot of this work isn't the the type of life-changing envisioned.
  - toyg 9y ago
    > the reality that most software jobs need skilled workers It's not just skill, it's also a level of creativity that one needs to do things like programming. And that creativity is often absent when the work is too boring.
    - dionidium 9y ago
      A lot of people reading this have no doubt bought into this (conveniently flattering) idea that they're creative people doing very difficult work -- and surely some of you really are! -- but a lot of us are just connecting databases to javascript front-ends. It's not composing a symphony. I assure you it can be done at 9AM when you're a little tired. Whether or not you should have to be at work at 9AM is another matter, but this idea that you can't possibly get anything useful done unless you're in the zone has been oversold.
  - logfromblammo 9y ago
    I think the problem is that starting in the mid-70s, companies have been continuously devaluing their human workers. Before that, it was possible to take a job after graduation and stay with the same company until retirement. A worker's loyalty to the company was rewarded in kind, with the company's loyalty to the worker. People got raises and promotions. They grew roots. Now, there is zero corporate loyalty. If you can't predict a profit for this quarter for your specific individual contribution, regardless of how hard you can work, you're fired. But you will come crawling back when we need you again, won't you? The workers have responded. If the company stops making the work worthwhile, the worker will slack off or jump ship. If the company force-feeds its Flavor-Ade, the employees will just puke it up as soon as it's safe to do so. If the company tells baldfaced lies about itself, the employees smile and nod, while thinking about the rude gestures they would like to be making. The "lack of engagement" is because the employees know that management cares about them not at all, but the forms must still be honored in order to receive the paycheck. In short, your company is bullshit and the workers hate it; they are just using it to get what they need and will ditch it the instant that a better deal comes along. We are all mercenaries now. We will disobey whenever it's more convenient for us, and we think we can get away with it. Because the company executives are just our bosses, not our friends or our leaders or our prophets. If they fire us, we move on to the next bosses just like them. We're not going to bust our ass to earn them another dollar. Maybe if we are freshly fallen off the back of the turnip truck, we will go the extra mile, but it doesn't take long for those folks to learn. So the disengaged worker is the default. We learned from our elders, who were forcibly disengaged by their employers. And since my fortunes are not tied to those of my employer in any meaningful way, I will not stick around to help bail out a sinking ship. If you're going down, I'm not even going to plug the leak and call for help. I'll just grab a lifeboat and be on my way, thanks. It will probably even be an even smoother ride, as I won't have to worry about any rising tides raising my boat.
  - watwut 9y ago
    The thing is, skilled smart people who don't mind spend their time fixing bugs and working on old codebase exist. Especially if the company allows them to have work life balance so that they can have hobbies or spend time with families and what not. The problem is that a programmer described above would not be hired by your company and simultaneously wont recognize your company as a good place for him from job posting. Even admitting that you dont mind fixing bugs is other peoples code might make you sound as lesser programmer in current culture. Otherwise said, there is mismatch between what companies need and what they reward.
- megaman22 9y ago
  If I'm cutting pulpwood or stacking boxes in a warehouse, it doesn't really matter whether my brain is engaged or not; it's mechanical labor and damn near mindless anyway[1]. But if I'm writing code and solving problems, and my brain isn't in gear, I can come sit at the desk for eight hours, but I'm not going to get anything accomplished, except building resentment for having to sit there at the desk for eight hours and look busy. [1] Perversely, I miss burning wood; as a kid I cursed the woodpile, but its good exercise and you can get a lot of thinking done while you do it.
  - Toast_25 9y ago
    I don't believe I agree completely. While I think that productivity can be lowered substantially while not being engaged by a problem, I do believe one can push through and solve it. I've worked in jobs I wasn't engaged by, was able to finish university (not fun), and am starting to get bored at my current job, but I can't leave just yet due to external circumstances. I believe character is a big part of it, but it doesn't change the fact that I'm posting to hacker news during work hours.

dionidium 9y ago

Setting aside my particular company, your response is just more evidence of the culture change I'm talking about. Not every job is going to engage you or enable you to make the kind of difference you want to make in the world. The notion that this is a valid excuse for telling your boss, "hey, pops, I'm not feeling engaged this morning, gonna be in later" is a new one. Maybe that's a good thing. Maybe not. But it's definitely a different thing.

Y7ZCQtNo39 9y ago
I think there is some truth to what we're both saying. At my particular company, the koolaid has always been about how innovate and exciting the work is. But you get in and spend a lot of your time fixing bugs and working on old, monolithic codebases. People want to make a difference, employers sell the vision, and then there's this mis-match and you have the disengaged worker. I think the problem is the reality that most software jobs need skilled workers, but skilled workers are often seeking enough intellectual stimulation from their jobs to make a difference, and a lot of this work isn't the the type of life-changing envisioned.
- toyg 9y ago
  > the reality that most software jobs need skilled workers It's not just skill, it's also a level of creativity that one needs to do things like programming. And that creativity is often absent when the work is too boring.
  - dionidium 9y ago
    A lot of people reading this have no doubt bought into this (conveniently flattering) idea that they're creative people doing very difficult work -- and surely some of you really are! -- but a lot of us are just connecting databases to javascript front-ends. It's not composing a symphony. I assure you it can be done at 9AM when you're a little tired. Whether or not you should have to be at work at 9AM is another matter, but this idea that you can't possibly get anything useful done unless you're in the zone has been oversold.
- logfromblammo 9y ago
  I think the problem is that starting in the mid-70s, companies have been continuously devaluing their human workers. Before that, it was possible to take a job after graduation and stay with the same company until retirement. A worker's loyalty to the company was rewarded in kind, with the company's loyalty to the worker. People got raises and promotions. They grew roots. Now, there is zero corporate loyalty. If you can't predict a profit for this quarter for your specific individual contribution, regardless of how hard you can work, you're fired. But you will come crawling back when we need you again, won't you? The workers have responded. If the company stops making the work worthwhile, the worker will slack off or jump ship. If the company force-feeds its Flavor-Ade, the employees will just puke it up as soon as it's safe to do so. If the company tells baldfaced lies about itself, the employees smile and nod, while thinking about the rude gestures they would like to be making. The "lack of engagement" is because the employees know that management cares about them not at all, but the forms must still be honored in order to receive the paycheck. In short, your company is bullshit and the workers hate it; they are just using it to get what they need and will ditch it the instant that a better deal comes along. We are all mercenaries now. We will disobey whenever it's more convenient for us, and we think we can get away with it. Because the company executives are just our bosses, not our friends or our leaders or our prophets. If they fire us, we move on to the next bosses just like them. We're not going to bust our ass to earn them another dollar. Maybe if we are freshly fallen off the back of the turnip truck, we will go the extra mile, but it doesn't take long for those folks to learn. So the disengaged worker is the default. We learned from our elders, who were forcibly disengaged by their employers. And since my fortunes are not tied to those of my employer in any meaningful way, I will not stick around to help bail out a sinking ship. If you're going down, I'm not even going to plug the leak and call for help. I'll just grab a lifeboat and be on my way, thanks. It will probably even be an even smoother ride, as I won't have to worry about any rising tides raising my boat.
- watwut 9y ago
  The thing is, skilled smart people who don't mind spend their time fixing bugs and working on old codebase exist. Especially if the company allows them to have work life balance so that they can have hobbies or spend time with families and what not. The problem is that a programmer described above would not be hired by your company and simultaneously wont recognize your company as a good place for him from job posting. Even admitting that you dont mind fixing bugs is other peoples code might make you sound as lesser programmer in current culture. Otherwise said, there is mismatch between what companies need and what they reward.
megaman22 9y ago
If I'm cutting pulpwood or stacking boxes in a warehouse, it doesn't really matter whether my brain is engaged or not; it's mechanical labor and damn near mindless anyway[1]. But if I'm writing code and solving problems, and my brain isn't in gear, I can come sit at the desk for eight hours, but I'm not going to get anything accomplished, except building resentment for having to sit there at the desk for eight hours and look busy. [1] Perversely, I miss burning wood; as a kid I cursed the woodpile, but its good exercise and you can get a lot of thinking done while you do it.
- Toast_25 9y ago
  I don't believe I agree completely. While I think that productivity can be lowered substantially while not being engaged by a problem, I do believe one can push through and solve it. I've worked in jobs I wasn't engaged by, was able to finish university (not fun), and am starting to get bored at my current job, but I can't leave just yet due to external circumstances. I believe character is a big part of it, but it doesn't change the fact that I'm posting to hacker news during work hours.