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I honestly think FOSS is one of the biggest problems in IT. It sounds weird, but hear me out. Beware, kind of a rant coming. The reason I think it is one of th

I honestly think FOSS is one of the biggest problems in IT. It sounds weird, but hear me out. Beware, kind of a rant coming. The reason I think it is one of the biggest problems is it devalues developers and the development process. We created a system in which we make software look like it's so simple you can just have it. Look at your development toolchain and then think about how many of the major components are free. Things that you rely on heavily. In PHP, we have composer, it's great nearly every PHP developer will use it at least once a week. They created a service that will improve the reliability and reduce the dependency on Github. They offer it for $10 a month per user. Nearly everyone said it was too expensive and didn't bring any value to be worth $10 a month for something they will constantly use. Especially on CI. If the development community literally doesn't value the cost of software, why would anyone else? The average person, if they want to create a website, will end up using something free such as WordPress to create and maintain their website for free. They can get lots of extensions for free and will nearly always be able to do everything they want for free. Now, why would you if you're the average person who wants a company website think $3,000 is a reasonable price. You can literally make a website yourself and just pay for hosting. You may think this is hyperbole, but how many Web Agencies have serious problems with people not paying compared to car mechanics? Many people will not spend $5 on a very good, very professional, high-end iPhone app because it's too expensive. Again, where this come from? The number of people who just created free apps and put them up on App Store. I know people who don't pay for any apps on their phones. So in conclusion, we have a general disappreciation for software. We have many multi-million if not multi-billion dollar applications that are built nearly all of free open source applications. Software that we really need to do our jobs and we have zero warranty on. Think about this for a minute some of these companies using these libraries, etc probably wouldn't hire someone to wire their building if it didn't have a warranty. But the libraries underpinning their software is free, so if that is free, why would you pay your developers that much money. Think about it, for a highly skilled profession, we are at the low end of the pay scale. Accountants, engineers, etc generally all seem to get paid more. Why? Because of FOSS.

kodablah 9y ago
As a capitalist, while I mostly agree with your complaints, you can't just dismiss the positives of FOSS has, especially on those of us that don't want to break the $ barrier to learn or get into things. This sounds like starving-artist syndrome. At least I know all that code I give away I treat like art and do it for fun. Sure it might help people, and sure people might give themselves false expectations based on it, but that's neither the industry's nor the artist's fault. Your mistake, when lamenting pay scale, is comparing to highly skilled professions which I no longer consider trivial software development to be (but some is, sure).
- johnnyfaehell 9y ago
  > especially on those of us that don't want to break the $ barrier to learn or get into things. This could be solved with "developer licenses" whereas you can use it for free if you aren't using it for commercial reasons. I use such licenses on hobby projects in non-tech areas. But once I start using and making money, I also get some support. I want this on all dev tools. I suspect the quality of our tools and libraries would increase massive.
  - kodablah 9y ago
    To your original comment, they just won't get used while restrictionless alternatives exist. I for one don't want this on all dev tools, because I don't want to provide support on the things I give out for free (which may make it one of those "restrictionless alternatives" I mentioned). Rather, I go the complete other direction and make caveats like non-support and potential stagnation clear. I treat things differently though if it is code core to my business, but the ancillary code itself is not my business.
crazypyro 9y ago
Isn't the barrier to entry much lower than any of the professions you mentioned? Many professions have professional certifications that artificially limits the supply and drives up their prices. (Professional Engineer, CPA, Bar exams, etc.)
- johnnyfaehell 9y ago
  > Many professions have professional certifications that artificially limits the supply and drives up their prices. We're literally in a profession where companies hire teams of recruiters to get developers. Majority of companies are looking for developers constantly. Whereas with the other professions, there are no supply problems, in fact, there are too many people becoming qualified that people have trouble getting jobs. Also, we have the barrier to entry the y don't have, the serious lack of junior positions, a massive demand for mid/senior positions. Supply and demand, says we should be getting paid more. In realitiy, I get paid pretty well compared to my friends in other fields, but I am aware of the serious discrepancy in salaries. But mainly my main gripe is there is no real support provided for major parts of my toolchain because we just give it away. Companies are literally struggling to come up with good software because everyone expects it for free.
  - crazypyro 9y ago
    I think the disconnect is that those teams of recruiters are trying to get experienced developers, not just someone who can sling some code together. A lot of FOSS starts as an amateur's project and buds into the full scale projects we see while the maintainers are also growing as software engineers with the project. People start FOSS projects and give them away because the initial market value tends to be negligible until the project has had time to mature and be fleshed out. Something like Linux had almost zero market value years into the project, its still just a "toy" to the market. Just the way I see things, but I can understand your viewpoint as well.
- BrandoElFollito 9y ago
  I did not know the concept of "professional engineer" (I am from Europe). We just have engineers, which in practical terms does not mean much, just that you finished a school which is entitled to give you such a title. Then hopefully you are educated enough to sign off that bridge. I read about Professional Engineers but I do not understand how different it is from "experienced engineer". It surely cannot be the exam, or otherwise the other engineers would be "Amateur Engineers" without any rezl use?
ploxiln 9y ago
It's easier to get a high-paying job as a software engineer, than as an accountant or other type of engineer. There are a lot more software jobs out there, and they pay a lot for someone with just a year or two of experience. As a software engineer, I depend on thousands of separate components: tools, libraries, docs, etc. Trying to fairly decide how much each is financially worth is not worth the time and effort. Open source enables amazing efficiencies here, it removes all the friction of figuring out how to commercially license and pay for all of these infinitely-reusable zero-marginal-cost components. The shift you need is one to your philosophy of work. Don't work on open-source software which isn't rewarding to you. Don't feel bad about the projects that don't get the financial support they need. Just be appreciative of the huge amount of extremely useful and valuable open source software available, find a job doing what someone else is willing to pay you a lot for, and reserve the right to work on an open source project or two in your free time, only to the extent that you are truly interested in doing so. Just like with artists (and most professions really), no one owes you for the work you want to do, you probably won't make enough money that way - but you can make good money by finding what people are willing to pay you to do. And you can still do what you want on the side.

kodablah 9y ago

As a capitalist, while I mostly agree with your complaints, you can't just dismiss the positives of FOSS has, especially on those of us that don't want to break the $ barrier to learn or get into things. This sounds like starving-artist syndrome. At least I know all that code I give away I treat like art and do it for fun. Sure it might help people, and sure people might give themselves false expectations based on it, but that's neither the industry's nor the artist's fault. Your mistake, when lamenting pay scale, is comparing to highly skilled professions which I no longer consider trivial software development to be (but some is, sure).

johnnyfaehell 9y ago
> especially on those of us that don't want to break the $ barrier to learn or get into things. This could be solved with "developer licenses" whereas you can use it for free if you aren't using it for commercial reasons. I use such licenses on hobby projects in non-tech areas. But once I start using and making money, I also get some support. I want this on all dev tools. I suspect the quality of our tools and libraries would increase massive.
- kodablah 9y ago
  To your original comment, they just won't get used while restrictionless alternatives exist. I for one don't want this on all dev tools, because I don't want to provide support on the things I give out for free (which may make it one of those "restrictionless alternatives" I mentioned). Rather, I go the complete other direction and make caveats like non-support and potential stagnation clear. I treat things differently though if it is code core to my business, but the ancillary code itself is not my business.

crazypyro 9y ago

Isn't the barrier to entry much lower than any of the professions you mentioned? Many professions have professional certifications that artificially limits the supply and drives up their prices. (Professional Engineer, CPA, Bar exams, etc.)

johnnyfaehell 9y ago
> Many professions have professional certifications that artificially limits the supply and drives up their prices. We're literally in a profession where companies hire teams of recruiters to get developers. Majority of companies are looking for developers constantly. Whereas with the other professions, there are no supply problems, in fact, there are too many people becoming qualified that people have trouble getting jobs. Also, we have the barrier to entry the y don't have, the serious lack of junior positions, a massive demand for mid/senior positions. Supply and demand, says we should be getting paid more. In realitiy, I get paid pretty well compared to my friends in other fields, but I am aware of the serious discrepancy in salaries. But mainly my main gripe is there is no real support provided for major parts of my toolchain because we just give it away. Companies are literally struggling to come up with good software because everyone expects it for free.
- crazypyro 9y ago
  I think the disconnect is that those teams of recruiters are trying to get experienced developers, not just someone who can sling some code together. A lot of FOSS starts as an amateur's project and buds into the full scale projects we see while the maintainers are also growing as software engineers with the project. People start FOSS projects and give them away because the initial market value tends to be negligible until the project has had time to mature and be fleshed out. Something like Linux had almost zero market value years into the project, its still just a "toy" to the market. Just the way I see things, but I can understand your viewpoint as well.
BrandoElFollito 9y ago
I did not know the concept of "professional engineer" (I am from Europe). We just have engineers, which in practical terms does not mean much, just that you finished a school which is entitled to give you such a title. Then hopefully you are educated enough to sign off that bridge. I read about Professional Engineers but I do not understand how different it is from "experienced engineer". It surely cannot be the exam, or otherwise the other engineers would be "Amateur Engineers" without any rezl use?

ploxiln 9y ago

It's easier to get a high-paying job as a software engineer, than as an accountant or other type of engineer. There are a lot more software jobs out there, and they pay a lot for someone with just a year or two of experience. As a software engineer, I depend on thousands of separate components: tools, libraries, docs, etc. Trying to fairly decide how much each is financially worth is not worth the time and effort. Open source enables amazing efficiencies here, it removes all the friction of figuring out how to commercially license and pay for all of these infinitely-reusable zero-marginal-cost components. The shift you need is one to your philosophy of work. Don't work on open-source software which isn't rewarding to you. Don't feel bad about the projects that don't get the financial support they need. Just be appreciative of the huge amount of extremely useful and valuable open source software available, find a job doing what someone else is willing to pay you a lot for, and reserve the right to work on an open source project or two in your free time, only to the extent that you are truly interested in doing so. Just like with artists (and most professions really), no one owes you for the work you want to do, you probably won't make enough money that way - but you can make good money by finding what people are willing to pay you to do. And you can still do what you want on the side.