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> Somehow it has a reputation for pseudoscience I can only speak from personal experience, but my company tried a big mindfulness push a couple of years ago. M

> Somehow it has a reputation for pseudoscience I can only speak from personal experience, but my company tried a big mindfulness push a couple of years ago. Maybe we just had a bad instructor, but everything was just wishy-washy and felt like a giant waste of time, full of tautologies and wrapping perfectly ordinary common sense (you're more relaxed when you allow yourself to relax, WELL DUH!) up in some sort of vague mysticism. I am perfectly capable of relaxing and unburdening my mind, but it just ain't happening during a normal workday with deadlines and badly defined business processes. If you just let me be and let me listen to some music without being disturbed, I'll be perfectly calm and relaxed, no mysticism needed.

kamac 9y ago
> If you just let me be and let me listen to some music without being disturbed, I'll be perfectly calm and relaxed, no mysticism needed. Meditation is more than just relaxation. It's about a state of mind. About being in the present moment, letting go, looking inward and reflecting about oneself. I don't think you do any of those things when just relaxing while listening to music. Also, > I am perfectly capable of relaxing and unburdening my mind, but it just ain't happening during a normal workday with deadlines and badly defined business processes. That means you are not perfectly capable of relaxing your mind.
- KozmoNau7 9y ago
  > Meditation is more than just relaxation. It's about a state of mind. About being in the present moment, letting go, looking inward and reflecting about oneself. I don't think you do any of those things when just relaxing while listening to music. Well, it's obviously that you don't know me. I am in fact in the moment and I do in fact let go and reflect when I listen to music. Or when I go for a walk or any of a multitude of other non-stressful activities that let me ignore the annoyances of daily life and other people, for a little while. > That means you are not perfectly capable of relaxing your mind. Like I said, it's obvious that you don't know me at all.
  - kamac 9y ago
    If you really get the same benefits from listening to music as somebody who does correct mindfulness meditation, then good for you. It's most likely not true though.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    The idea of the parent is that you should be able to relax despite the "annoyances of daily life and other people" -- in other words, in any environment. Else, baring some physiological/psychological condition, everybody can relax when in a relaxed environment...
    - KozmoNau7 9y ago
      Maybe we have different definitions of "relaxing".
      - coldtea 9y ago
        Maybe not all of them are valid when discussing "Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction".
  - donquichotte 9y ago
    I don't understand why this is being downvoted. Kamac's comment comes across as patronizing. Phrases like "state of mind", "letting go" and "looking inward" don't actually mean a whole lot. Even "meditation" can be ambiguous. Unclear terminology is IMO always a symptom of snake-oil mumbo jumbo. Funny that the SV tech elite seems to just suck that quackery up and plays along.
    - kamac 9y ago
      It's a topic that's difficult to put into words, true. I don't agree that "letting go" or "looking inward" are meaningless. In fact, letting go has a very literal meaning. You're supposed to not think about something on purpose, and when thoughts come, you don't follow them. Looking inward is basically not focusing on the outside world. You're not supposed to sit and stare at a chair, but focus on something that is "inward", which could be for example your presence or your breathing. Unclear terminology sometimes comes from either not having a deep enough grasp of the topic at hand. Sometimes on the other hand, the thing you're trying to explain is just hard to put into words.
JamesBarney 9y ago
Meditation is pretty simple. It's just getting better at something you practice. Specifically controlling your attention and being aware of what you're thinking about. No magic, pretty straightforward. But an enormous amount of suffering is caused by us thinking/worrying about bad shit. Now if you are more aware of what you're thinking and can change what you're paying attention to you can make your mind spend a lot less time worrying about shit that makes you miserable.
- KozmoNau7 9y ago
  That's my point. I don't need mindfulness to reflect on my thoughts.
  - kirab 9y ago
    But that literally is mindfulness. It is not a magic technique... Simply reflecting on your thoughts (and/or feelings) is basically the definition of mindfulness. PS: It is sad that this marketing/self-help-book/guru/training etc. hype around "mindfulness" distorted the original simple meaning of the word mindfulness.
    - KozmoNau7 9y ago
      Probably. My experience was that they were trying to teach common sense, wrapped up in mysticism and marketing.
      - mattmanser 9y ago
        It's not common sense to most people, that's precisely why it gets recommended so much. It's very easy for you to say it is, perhaps because that's all you know. For some people you can get stuck in a sort of auto pilot, moving from acting on one thought to the next, instead of realizing they're just thoughts and you can let some go. I'm also a bit skeptical that you actually are mindful of yourself. When you actually do it and realize how it works, it's pretty amazing. I certainly didn't think "well, that's just common sense". When you actually do it, start observing your thoughts and feelings as separate from you instead of consuming them and getting caught up in them, it does bring calm and a feeling of refreshment. The best thing I use mindfulness for is stopping a destructive cyclical worry. As an example from the past, say I'm worried about a client not having paid his bill yet, I know they're having cash flow problems and I worry I exposed myself to too much risk. What can happen is that thought can spiral and keep popping into my head, intruding into my day. It might create a cascade of thoughts, what my bank balance is like, how might I get a partial payment, is it too early to phone, should I look for another client, what will I do with the existing work, should I have asked for better payments terms, etc., etc., etc. But the worst part is, I would have that exact same chain multiple times a day. It intruded over and over, until the client would pay (predictably) late again. But none of that helped when it was firing, it's not even that late yet. It just made me stressed and stopped me from getting what I needed to get done that day, sometimes I couldn't just place it aside. Using mindfulness, instead of consuming that thought and worrying about it, I can just look on it as a thought.
brango 9y ago
> If you just let me be and let me listen to some music without being disturbed, I'll be perfectly calm and relaxed, no mysticism needed. Do you spontaneously laugh because you're filled with such joy in this state of "relaxation"? I've done that after a body scan and just mindful breathing. The thing with relaxation is it's easy to think you are relaxed until you experience actual deep relaxation. Search on youtube for "Yoga nidra", lie down and just follow the instructions. Simple yet profound.
- KozmoNau7 9y ago
  Yes, some of my favorite music will give me chills down my spine, make me smile (occasionally laugh), sing along and dance. I also get a profound sense of relaxation after a hard hour of crossfit, an urge to just lean back, take a deep breath and not give a shit about anything. When I think back afterwards, during the exercise my mind is completely clear of all worries, only the movements matter.
  - brango 9y ago
    Different strokes for different folks. Sounds good to me :-)

kamac 9y ago

> If you just let me be and let me listen to some music without being disturbed, I'll be perfectly calm and relaxed, no mysticism needed. Meditation is more than just relaxation. It's about a state of mind. About being in the present moment, letting go, looking inward and reflecting about oneself. I don't think you do any of those things when just relaxing while listening to music. Also, > I am perfectly capable of relaxing and unburdening my mind, but it just ain't happening during a normal workday with deadlines and badly defined business processes. That means you are not perfectly capable of relaxing your mind.

KozmoNau7 9y ago
> Meditation is more than just relaxation. It's about a state of mind. About being in the present moment, letting go, looking inward and reflecting about oneself. I don't think you do any of those things when just relaxing while listening to music. Well, it's obviously that you don't know me. I am in fact in the moment and I do in fact let go and reflect when I listen to music. Or when I go for a walk or any of a multitude of other non-stressful activities that let me ignore the annoyances of daily life and other people, for a little while. > That means you are not perfectly capable of relaxing your mind. Like I said, it's obvious that you don't know me at all.
- kamac 9y ago
  If you really get the same benefits from listening to music as somebody who does correct mindfulness meditation, then good for you. It's most likely not true though.
- coldtea 9y ago
  The idea of the parent is that you should be able to relax despite the "annoyances of daily life and other people" -- in other words, in any environment. Else, baring some physiological/psychological condition, everybody can relax when in a relaxed environment...
  - KozmoNau7 9y ago
    Maybe we have different definitions of "relaxing".
    - coldtea 9y ago
      Maybe not all of them are valid when discussing "Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction".
- donquichotte 9y ago
  I don't understand why this is being downvoted. Kamac's comment comes across as patronizing. Phrases like "state of mind", "letting go" and "looking inward" don't actually mean a whole lot. Even "meditation" can be ambiguous. Unclear terminology is IMO always a symptom of snake-oil mumbo jumbo. Funny that the SV tech elite seems to just suck that quackery up and plays along.
  - kamac 9y ago
    It's a topic that's difficult to put into words, true. I don't agree that "letting go" or "looking inward" are meaningless. In fact, letting go has a very literal meaning. You're supposed to not think about something on purpose, and when thoughts come, you don't follow them. Looking inward is basically not focusing on the outside world. You're not supposed to sit and stare at a chair, but focus on something that is "inward", which could be for example your presence or your breathing. Unclear terminology sometimes comes from either not having a deep enough grasp of the topic at hand. Sometimes on the other hand, the thing you're trying to explain is just hard to put into words.

JamesBarney 9y ago

Meditation is pretty simple. It's just getting better at something you practice. Specifically controlling your attention and being aware of what you're thinking about. No magic, pretty straightforward. But an enormous amount of suffering is caused by us thinking/worrying about bad shit. Now if you are more aware of what you're thinking and can change what you're paying attention to you can make your mind spend a lot less time worrying about shit that makes you miserable.

KozmoNau7 9y ago
That's my point. I don't need mindfulness to reflect on my thoughts.
- kirab 9y ago
  But that literally is mindfulness. It is not a magic technique... Simply reflecting on your thoughts (and/or feelings) is basically the definition of mindfulness. PS: It is sad that this marketing/self-help-book/guru/training etc. hype around "mindfulness" distorted the original simple meaning of the word mindfulness.
  - KozmoNau7 9y ago
    Probably. My experience was that they were trying to teach common sense, wrapped up in mysticism and marketing.
    - mattmanser 9y ago
      It's not common sense to most people, that's precisely why it gets recommended so much. It's very easy for you to say it is, perhaps because that's all you know. For some people you can get stuck in a sort of auto pilot, moving from acting on one thought to the next, instead of realizing they're just thoughts and you can let some go. I'm also a bit skeptical that you actually are mindful of yourself. When you actually do it and realize how it works, it's pretty amazing. I certainly didn't think "well, that's just common sense". When you actually do it, start observing your thoughts and feelings as separate from you instead of consuming them and getting caught up in them, it does bring calm and a feeling of refreshment. The best thing I use mindfulness for is stopping a destructive cyclical worry. As an example from the past, say I'm worried about a client not having paid his bill yet, I know they're having cash flow problems and I worry I exposed myself to too much risk. What can happen is that thought can spiral and keep popping into my head, intruding into my day. It might create a cascade of thoughts, what my bank balance is like, how might I get a partial payment, is it too early to phone, should I look for another client, what will I do with the existing work, should I have asked for better payments terms, etc., etc., etc. But the worst part is, I would have that exact same chain multiple times a day. It intruded over and over, until the client would pay (predictably) late again. But none of that helped when it was firing, it's not even that late yet. It just made me stressed and stopped me from getting what I needed to get done that day, sometimes I couldn't just place it aside. Using mindfulness, instead of consuming that thought and worrying about it, I can just look on it as a thought.

brango 9y ago

> If you just let me be and let me listen to some music without being disturbed, I'll be perfectly calm and relaxed, no mysticism needed. Do you spontaneously laugh because you're filled with such joy in this state of "relaxation"? I've done that after a body scan and just mindful breathing. The thing with relaxation is it's easy to think you are relaxed until you experience actual deep relaxation. Search on youtube for "Yoga nidra", lie down and just follow the instructions. Simple yet profound.

KozmoNau7 9y ago
Yes, some of my favorite music will give me chills down my spine, make me smile (occasionally laugh), sing along and dance. I also get a profound sense of relaxation after a hard hour of crossfit, an urge to just lean back, take a deep breath and not give a shit about anything. When I think back afterwards, during the exercise my mind is completely clear of all worries, only the movements matter.
- brango 9y ago
  Different strokes for different folks. Sounds good to me :-)