4 ms·
There are more than four states of matter, but it’s true only the classical four would have been observable to a medieval person, so that is an interesting para
by ramchip 9y ago
There are more than four states of matter, but it’s true only the classical four would have been observable to a medieval person, so that is an interesting parallel.
- thaumasiotes 9y agoThere are no four classical states of matter. Nor, relatedly, would plasma have been observable to a medieval person. What parallel?
- benbreen 9y agoPeople could see lightning (which so far as I know, is a form of plasma) in the Middle Ages and relate it to the element of fire, no?
- thaumasiotes 9y agoThat is possible. However, the plasma state of matter cannot actually be observed (by a medieval person, etc.). How would they have determined that lightning, which is visible as a glowing plasma, does represent a state of matter different from solid / liquid / gas, but fire, which is visible as glowing, does not? If you're willing to grant that they can't, then in what sense is it possible for them to observe plasma?
- ggggtez 9y agoDon't be pedantic. So what if fire isn't plasma. They categorized the world by states of matter, but in a way which is not exactly parallel to modern people. Acknowledging that there world is made of mixture of fundamental elements was a great scientific achievement, even if it was wrong about how it worked.
- benchaney 9y agoGP isn't being pedantic, although I believe there was a significant misunderstanding. I think that ramchip meant fire, earth, air, and water, when he said "four classical states of matter, where as GP thought he meant solid, liquid, gas, and plasma.
- thaumasiotes 9y ago>> So what if fire isn't plasma. They categorized the world by states of matter > I think that ramchip meant fire, earth, air, and water, when he said "four classical states of matter" That was the best interpretation I could come up with too. I wasn't saying fire isn't plasma, though of course it isn't. I was saying fire is not a state of matter. "They categorized the world by states of matter" is not correct. For example, the ancients were well aware that ice was a form of water, not a form of earth.
- bryanrasmussen 9y agosince fire is not a state of matter, they were incorrect in what they admitted to their category of the various states of matter, but they still categorized fire as a state of matter and as such categorized the world by states of matter. The interesting part was supposed to be that they came, with their categories relatively close to the actual classical categories - however I suppose that the classical categories were actually intellectually derived from (or their conception inspired by) the ancient 'elements'.
- thaumasiotes 9y ago> they were incorrect in what they admitted to their category of the various states of matter, but they still categorized fire as a state of matter and as such categorized the world by states of matter. No they didn't. Why do you say so?
- lokedhs 9y agoThey could just look at the sun. The stuff you see is mostly plasma.
- thaumasiotes 9y agoAristotle didn't consider the sun to be related to fire at all. As a celestial object, it would have been composed of ether.
- ramchip 9y ago> There are no four classical states of matter. Gas, liquid, solid, plasma. I don't think this is very controversial?.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_of_matter#Classical_states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_of_matter#Class... The parallel is that each of the "elements" corresponds to a different state of matter. Plasma would have been observable via fire.
- thaumasiotes 9y agoAh, you've found an error on my part. I was thinking "classical states of matter" referred to the understanding of states of matter in the classical period, which could not have included plasma. Again, plasma is not observable via fire, because fire is not plasma.
- ramchip 9y agoI think the question of fire is a lot less clear cut than you give it credit. See e.g. the discussion in https://physics.stackexchange.com/a/75106 https://physics.stackexchange.com/a/75106