3 ms·

Am I being silly or did github just re-invent forums?

by Navarr 9y ago

steveklabnik 9y ago
Integration is a feature. Managing big open source projects is tough, and discussions are a huge pain point. In Rust, we currently have a discourse instance running at https://internals.rust-lang.org/ https://internals.rust-lang.org/ . I just saw the post and haven't dug into the details, but in theory, not needing to run an entirely different service, with all of the integration work that entails, would be really, really nice.
- geofft 9y ago
  The similarity between Debian's mailing lists and bug reporting system (each bug is, essentially, its own mailing list) has been helpful - you can spin off an email thread to a bug report by Ccing submit@bugs.debian.org and including the right metadata at the top of your reply (usually just "Package:" and "Version:"), and you can spin off a bug report to a mailing list by just Cc'ing it and dropping or Bcc'ing the bug itself. If you can do things like reference a discussion from a pull request and vice versa just like you can reference PRs from other PRs or in commits, that seems like a huge advantage over running a phpBB somewhere else.
  - eeZah7Ux 9y ago
    Debian and Kernel developers have very functional platforms that require little maintenance compared to GitHub & co. Still, email is slow and kludgy. Someone should reinvent NNTP.
    - rhizome 9y ago
      Why is email slow and kludgy? I don't want to relitigate old threads, but the only way I can see coming to that conclusion is that it's because it puts a person back in control of their attention. What would our workdays look like without Slack notifications?
      - geofft 9y ago
        For the Debian BTS and its mailing lists, there's no instant feedback on whether sending a message worked, which means I have to manually poll my inbox for a bit for errors. Every web-based platform gives me a little spinner if needed and then an immediate confirmation that the action was accepted end-to-end and will happen. My email client only tells me that my local MTA has accepted it, which tells me nothing about whether Debian has accepted it, let alone whether the BTS accepted the format of my email, the mailing list thinks I'm subscribed and will pass it on, some spam filter has decided to silently drop my email entirely, etc. So I get less control of my attention with email. If I change a bug status or reply to a comment in GitHub, I can send my message and be done with it. (And I get replies in emails, not via push notifications of any sort.)
        eeZah7Ux 9y ago
        > there's no instant feedback on whether sending a message worked > So I get less control of my attention with email Exactly what I wanted to reply. There are corner cases where an asynchronous medium forces you to multitask. On top of that, email was is not meant for threaded, group discussion. NNTP was: you can organize groups, access and search past discussions before you joined them, and run a decentralized/distributed service without fiddling with domains, DNS, DKIM... in comparison, email is kludgy.
        rhizome 9y ago
        My email client only tells me that my local MTA has accepted it, which tells me nothing about whether Debian has accepted it, let alone whether the BTS accepted the format of my email, Is this hard to make reliable? Do other Debian contributors have these problems? I rarely hear of people having to babysit sending email, and by far it most frequently comes from inside my head when I'm mucking about with my server config, but aside from that email just works.
        geofft 9y ago
        > Is this hard to make reliable? Do other Debian contributors have these problems? My impression is that othrr Debian contributors do one of three things: 1. Use the 'bts' utility, which creates an email message for you in the right format, which adds something resembling client-side validation (with the usual races and uncertainties of client-side validation), and last I checked still depends on your local system being able to send mail as your actual email account 2. Use Debian for so long that the BTS syntax is second nature (this is almost where I am) 3. Not interact with the BTS, at least other than submitting bugs via the 'reportbug' utility GitHub is miles ahead in usability by people who aren't already familiar with the system.
- phillc73 9y ago
  Exactly this. I'm currently planning to move a small community off a SimpleMachines self hosted forum where I upload files every day. I was looking at GitLab as an option, because I can automate daily file delivery by cron pushing to the private repository. I was trying to decide if the Issues could somehow be used in place of a forum. After deciding they couldn't, my next thought was Discourse. However, if GitLab had this integrated discussion board it looks like it could be the right solution.

Am I being silly or did github just re-invent forums?

by Navarr 9y ago

Am I being silly or did github just re-invent forums?

Integration is a feature. Managing big open source projects is tough, and discussions are a huge pain point. In Rust, we currently have a discourse instance running at https://internals.rust-lang.org/ https://internals.rust-lang.org/ . I just saw the post and haven't dug into the details, but in theory, not needing to run an entirely different service, with all of the integration work that entails, would be really, really nice.

geofft 9y ago
The similarity between Debian's mailing lists and bug reporting system (each bug is, essentially, its own mailing list) has been helpful - you can spin off an email thread to a bug report by Ccing submit@bugs.debian.org and including the right metadata at the top of your reply (usually just "Package:" and "Version:"), and you can spin off a bug report to a mailing list by just Cc'ing it and dropping or Bcc'ing the bug itself. If you can do things like reference a discussion from a pull request and vice versa just like you can reference PRs from other PRs or in commits, that seems like a huge advantage over running a phpBB somewhere else.
- eeZah7Ux 9y ago
  Debian and Kernel developers have very functional platforms that require little maintenance compared to GitHub & co. Still, email is slow and kludgy. Someone should reinvent NNTP.
  - rhizome 9y ago
    Why is email slow and kludgy? I don't want to relitigate old threads, but the only way I can see coming to that conclusion is that it's because it puts a person back in control of their attention. What would our workdays look like without Slack notifications?
    - geofft 9y ago
      For the Debian BTS and its mailing lists, there's no instant feedback on whether sending a message worked, which means I have to manually poll my inbox for a bit for errors. Every web-based platform gives me a little spinner if needed and then an immediate confirmation that the action was accepted end-to-end and will happen. My email client only tells me that my local MTA has accepted it, which tells me nothing about whether Debian has accepted it, let alone whether the BTS accepted the format of my email, the mailing list thinks I'm subscribed and will pass it on, some spam filter has decided to silently drop my email entirely, etc. So I get less control of my attention with email. If I change a bug status or reply to a comment in GitHub, I can send my message and be done with it. (And I get replies in emails, not via push notifications of any sort.)
      - eeZah7Ux 9y ago
        > there's no instant feedback on whether sending a message worked > So I get less control of my attention with email Exactly what I wanted to reply. There are corner cases where an asynchronous medium forces you to multitask. On top of that, email was is not meant for threaded, group discussion. NNTP was: you can organize groups, access and search past discussions before you joined them, and run a decentralized/distributed service without fiddling with domains, DNS, DKIM... in comparison, email is kludgy.
      - rhizome 9y ago
        My email client only tells me that my local MTA has accepted it, which tells me nothing about whether Debian has accepted it, let alone whether the BTS accepted the format of my email, Is this hard to make reliable? Do other Debian contributors have these problems? I rarely hear of people having to babysit sending email, and by far it most frequently comes from inside my head when I'm mucking about with my server config, but aside from that email just works.
        geofft 9y ago
        > Is this hard to make reliable? Do other Debian contributors have these problems? My impression is that othrr Debian contributors do one of three things: 1. Use the 'bts' utility, which creates an email message for you in the right format, which adds something resembling client-side validation (with the usual races and uncertainties of client-side validation), and last I checked still depends on your local system being able to send mail as your actual email account 2. Use Debian for so long that the BTS syntax is second nature (this is almost where I am) 3. Not interact with the BTS, at least other than submitting bugs via the 'reportbug' utility GitHub is miles ahead in usability by people who aren't already familiar with the system.
phillc73 9y ago
Exactly this. I'm currently planning to move a small community off a SimpleMachines self hosted forum where I upload files every day. I was looking at GitLab as an option, because I can automate daily file delivery by cron pushing to the private repository. I was trying to decide if the Issues could somehow be used in place of a forum. After deciding they couldn't, my next thought was Discourse. However, if GitLab had this integrated discussion board it looks like it could be the right solution.