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I've had a weird front row seat to sand in Minnesota. We have a popular local renaissance festival southwest of the Twin Cities. Its location is typical for suc

by beat 9y ago

I've had a weird front row seat to sand in Minnesota. We have a popular local renaissance festival southwest of the Twin Cities. Its location is typical for such things - a plot of otherwise unused land near a riverbed, too sandy for typical Minnesota farming, thanks to the meanderings of the nearby Minnesota River. The sandy soil, it turns out, is like a hundred feet deep, and perfect for fracking operations in the kinda-nearby North Dakota gas fields. A few years back, the owners started aggressively strip-mining it, leaving gaping holes where the festival parking lots once were. Eventually, they ended the lease with the festival, in order to strip-mine the land it sits on. Imagine that... mere "sand", so valuable that it's worth giving up a substantial commercial lease that has run for decades and should have been able to run for decades into the future (and provides hundreds of local jobs), just for the one-time use.

cal5k 9y ago
It makes sense if you think about it... let’s say that sand sells for $10 per cubic yard. If there’s a substantial area with sand down to 100ft you’re talking millions upon millions of dollars worth of sand!
- beat 9y ago
  Yeah, I assume the value of the sand is on par with at least a decade or two of the lease value, for the land owners. It still strikes me as a poor decision for the city, though. The renaissance festival employs hundreds of locals every summer, has for decades, would for decades. It also supports a caste of roaming professional performers who live there for a few months every year, spending money in town. That's a lot of economic activity! Instead, it'll be exchanged for money to go to a probably out-of-town mining operation, and the land will be permanently worthless after that - just a big hole in the ground, filling up with water.
  - burger_moon 9y ago
    People also have to work at the sand mine too. Unlike festival jobs these aren't seasonal and the pay is actually livable and something you can raise a family on. I understand losing your festival isn't fun, in fact I remember you writing this on hn previously when there were articles about sand mining but you have to understand that this happens in all cities. Some old theatre gets torn down to make way for a new high rise condo, or a tech company decides to move in and tears down a factory to make way for a shiny new office building. Additionally, if the festival promotors really cared for the festival and the long tradition of it, wouldn't they just ya know move to a different field to host it?
    - beat 9y ago
      Moving a large festival with hundreds of workers and thousands of attendees to a new, stable location isn't as easy as it sounds. And yes, they are doing that, but it took a couple of years of looking for a viable new location. As for sand mining as a "not seasonal" job - that mine will be played out in a year or two. The fest jobs are more long-term viable, by far. There are a number of local small businesses that make much of their annual income in the couple of months that the festival is open every summer/fall.
      - ensignavenger 9y ago
        It sounds like those local businesses should be pooling together to find the festival permanent home. I realize that it may not be easy to find a spot- all the more reason to try to find something the festival can own... maybe the businesses could pool their money and buy some land, put it in a trust to be used for the festival grounds. The grounds could be used for other events when the festival isn't happening.
    - ghostly_s 9y ago
      While I'm sure it's more profitable, I can't imagine a sand mine employs anywhere near the number of people a popular festival would on the same acreage. We're not talking a highly sophisticated mineral mining operation here...pretty sure it's just a handful of guys going out with front-end loaders and dump trucks.
      - SirZimzim 9y ago
        I'm just surprised that there is a lack of space in Minnesota.
        beat 9y ago
        It's not just "space", just as sand is not just "sand". It needs good highway access, as attendance is in the thousands every weekend for months. It needs water, power, and some sanitation facilities (the old festival location used porta-potties). It needs a campground. It needs to be within an hour's drive of most of the sprawling Twin Cities metro. It needs to be reasonably dry and safe in the vagaries of Minnesota summer weather. It needs cooperative zoning and regulation from the local government. It needs to be not too expensive to get into shape. It needs to be land that won't suddenly find a "more valuable" purpose anytime soon (like, say, strip mining, or building a new subdivision). Likewise, it can't really have any current residences on it, or those will need to be bought out. It's really, really complicated and difficult. They can't just plop it down anywhere.
- erikpukinskis 9y ago
  Plus who knows what kind of festivals will be drawn to the area by the sudden availability of a giant pit!
linkregister 9y ago
This is interesting to me because the Renaissance festival that has come to my home town for decades has been staffed exclusively by Minnesota natives. It's probably the same festival. I wonder if this decision cost the entire Midwest and Northeast their opportunity to have a Ren Fest.
- Phlarp 9y ago
  As a Minnesotan, I'm not that worried. The festival held at the sand quarry in question was able to renew it's lease for the venue for at least the next couple years. I also don't doubt their ability to find another suitable venue in the neighborhood if and when the time comes.
module0000 9y ago
tldr; greed trumps all else. Very sad but unsurprising to read your story :(

by beat 9y ago

cal5k 9y ago

It makes sense if you think about it... let’s say that sand sells for $10 per cubic yard. If there’s a substantial area with sand down to 100ft you’re talking millions upon millions of dollars worth of sand!

beat 9y ago
Yeah, I assume the value of the sand is on par with at least a decade or two of the lease value, for the land owners. It still strikes me as a poor decision for the city, though. The renaissance festival employs hundreds of locals every summer, has for decades, would for decades. It also supports a caste of roaming professional performers who live there for a few months every year, spending money in town. That's a lot of economic activity! Instead, it'll be exchanged for money to go to a probably out-of-town mining operation, and the land will be permanently worthless after that - just a big hole in the ground, filling up with water.
- burger_moon 9y ago
  People also have to work at the sand mine too. Unlike festival jobs these aren't seasonal and the pay is actually livable and something you can raise a family on. I understand losing your festival isn't fun, in fact I remember you writing this on hn previously when there were articles about sand mining but you have to understand that this happens in all cities. Some old theatre gets torn down to make way for a new high rise condo, or a tech company decides to move in and tears down a factory to make way for a shiny new office building. Additionally, if the festival promotors really cared for the festival and the long tradition of it, wouldn't they just ya know move to a different field to host it?
  - beat 9y ago
    Moving a large festival with hundreds of workers and thousands of attendees to a new, stable location isn't as easy as it sounds. And yes, they are doing that, but it took a couple of years of looking for a viable new location. As for sand mining as a "not seasonal" job - that mine will be played out in a year or two. The fest jobs are more long-term viable, by far. There are a number of local small businesses that make much of their annual income in the couple of months that the festival is open every summer/fall.
    - ensignavenger 9y ago
      It sounds like those local businesses should be pooling together to find the festival permanent home. I realize that it may not be easy to find a spot- all the more reason to try to find something the festival can own... maybe the businesses could pool their money and buy some land, put it in a trust to be used for the festival grounds. The grounds could be used for other events when the festival isn't happening.
  - ghostly_s 9y ago
    While I'm sure it's more profitable, I can't imagine a sand mine employs anywhere near the number of people a popular festival would on the same acreage. We're not talking a highly sophisticated mineral mining operation here...pretty sure it's just a handful of guys going out with front-end loaders and dump trucks.
    - SirZimzim 9y ago
      I'm just surprised that there is a lack of space in Minnesota.
      - beat 9y ago
        It's not just "space", just as sand is not just "sand". It needs good highway access, as attendance is in the thousands every weekend for months. It needs water, power, and some sanitation facilities (the old festival location used porta-potties). It needs a campground. It needs to be within an hour's drive of most of the sprawling Twin Cities metro. It needs to be reasonably dry and safe in the vagaries of Minnesota summer weather. It needs cooperative zoning and regulation from the local government. It needs to be not too expensive to get into shape. It needs to be land that won't suddenly find a "more valuable" purpose anytime soon (like, say, strip mining, or building a new subdivision). Likewise, it can't really have any current residences on it, or those will need to be bought out. It's really, really complicated and difficult. They can't just plop it down anywhere.
erikpukinskis 9y ago
Plus who knows what kind of festivals will be drawn to the area by the sudden availability of a giant pit!

linkregister 9y ago

This is interesting to me because the Renaissance festival that has come to my home town for decades has been staffed exclusively by Minnesota natives. It's probably the same festival. I wonder if this decision cost the entire Midwest and Northeast their opportunity to have a Ren Fest.

Phlarp 9y ago
As a Minnesotan, I'm not that worried. The festival held at the sand quarry in question was able to renew it's lease for the venue for at least the next couple years. I also don't doubt their ability to find another suitable venue in the neighborhood if and when the time comes.

module0000 9y ago

tldr; greed trumps all else. Very sad but unsurprising to read your story :(