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even that i would dispute in case of Rome "To Agitius, thrice consul: [...] The barbarians drive us to the sea, the sea drives us to the barbarians; between th
by kristjankalm 9y ago
even that i would dispute in case of Rome
"To Agitius, thrice consul: [...] The barbarians drive us to the sea, the sea drives us to the barbarians; between these two means of death, we are either killed or drowned."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groans_of_the_Britons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groans_of_the_Britons
- ThomPete 9y agoWe are talking civilization collapse no? Not sure what that Wiki article proves.
- kristjankalm 9y ago>> namely that there wasnt a collapse in the mind of the people back then my quote was an example how people were quite acutely aware of the collapse around them. wiki link just a reference for the quote.
- ThomPete 9y agoI don't see in what way that quote reference any awareness of the collapse of civilization.
- kristjankalm 9y agook, to really flesh it out for you then -- this is a desperate letter by the representatives of roman citizens in britain to Aetius, consul, to send help or do something since barbarians, crop failures, raids etc. it certainly gives the impression of people witnessing and being subject to the collapse of the civic society. if you want more than an anecdote read the whole account of roman collapse in britain by gildas, a contemporary. its pretty desperate in tone and attitude.
- ThomPete 9y agoI got that part. It's it is not, however, a desperate letter talking about the collapse of a civilization. You would be able to find similar letters begging for Romes intervention during Romes reign. It's not proof of anything even close to awareness of the collapse of civilization.
- kristjankalm 9y ago>> you would be able to find similar letters begging for Romes intervention during Romes reign. which ones specifically then? and more importantly, its not just this letter, as i mentioned above the whole gildas’ de excidio goes explaining in quite detail the sudden and devastating effect of the collapse of roman authority in britain. do you have any evidence to back up your insistence that majority of the population went on like business as usual?
- ThomPete 9y agoYour examples don't portray someone aware of the collapse of a civilization it portrays someone aware of the lack of roman authority. That is in no shape or form the same. And no I don't have any examples handy that I can point to right now, but I am sure there are plenty if you dig a little.