3 ms·

I had the same bad experience with a cofounder explained in the article, some years ago. I started a little company in my city with what I believed was a close

I had the same bad experience with a cofounder explained in the article, some years ago. I started a little company in my city with what I believed was a close friend. I had a job and I was still at university, while he didn't and had a wife and a newborn daughter, so I thought he was committed enough. I was wrong because he had backing from his parents that are quite wealthy. After some months in which I was the only one that made some work (website design), bringing some money in the company while he was losing time with the excuses like "I'm not ready and I don't want to ruin the company reputation (he was the sales guy), he decided that it was better to split our paths. I "sold" my part of the company to him and after one year he closed it full of debts. From then on I always found myself in a better position doing things alone. They say that the weight is to much to endure for one single founder, but I don't think so. I was always able to endure everything. If you have friends or relatives or a partner in your life, you are never alone. If you need their support, it does not matter if they are in your venture or not.

pierrefar 16y ago
If you have friends or relatives or a partner in your life, you are never alone. Yes! I don't think this is said enough. I was having this exact chat with my wife last night. I'm working as a freelancer while building a startup and she's supporting me 100%. What were talking about is how a husband-wife team would look to potential investors when clearly one person is doing the most of the visible work, but couldn't do as much without the other. And one thing that came up is equity and how that could play out. I wish I had a good answer.
- maukdaddy 16y ago
  This is a topic we should discuss more on HN. Both my wife and myself are currently working on an evening MBA program. People are shocked that we are able to do it at the same time, take classes together, etc. I don't understand, because I find that we end up supporting each other, motivating each other, etc. Along the same lines, I would definitely love to run a company with my wife one day. Most people I meet are aghast when I suggest running a company with a spouse. Is this idea really that rare?
  - mayava 16y ago
    Thanks for the comments, guys. I'm definitely interested in exploring co-founder relationships further. Seems to me that bringing on a "good friend" as a co-founder is a treacherous path (either take off or crash and burn), but most husband/wife, brother/sister, and very very best friends co-founder relationships seem to work out. Perhaps the extreme closeness allows the parties to communicate more openly, be more committed, or better understand and accommodate each others' weaknesses.
Be_Silly 16y ago
I'm consistently baffled by this co-founder obsession also. The oldest advice in the book used to be "Don't do business with friends." For some values of co-founder this could mean new friends. Friends without deep references are a dangerous lot! And you can't google character or find it on FB. Or anywhere where someone is their own biographer, meaning the entire internet for 99.999% of all humans. But you sure as heck can dig, suggest partying out with their college years buddies, and see for yourself. Be serious about this. Be unafraid of loosing endless friends and potential friends because you have to make hurtful analyses of them. But smile and admit your fallibility whilst doing so. Funnily it's often as not those i character assasinate who call me. I've always had issues with this age old "don't work with friends" advice, because i worked many years with very close friends, but i realize there were some very exceptional circumstances. My suspicious mind says that if a investor wants multiple co-founders, he's hedging or planning divide and rule, or hoping the options pool rotation will balance in his favor because inevitably once the founder sample increases, so does the chance of departures. Listen to who advocates the advice and what's their position. On some projects however i have invited in people i knew well and who were friends (not the above) and it's been beyond disasterous. Fail is too complimentary. Something has to happen before it can fail. My guess, just a take on this, is that if you have a buddy who is used to seeing you take an active role, take a lead in discussing circumstances and problems, they actually end up identifying you as that kind of person, that that's your identity, role, raison d'etre. So they step back, because that's how they perceive you. Thus, you get dumped with the work. Society does divide itself into specialisms. Yours just happens to be doing shit, theirs observing or finding tangential ways to benefit from reflected glory. Those guys talk bloody great game by the way. If you talk great game, the problem is you're pre-selecting those who want to be sold something. You're selling them, they are therefore choosing your offer, they are passive. You are freaking selling them. So they think you benefit just by their saying "yes". Unless they give you cash when they say yes, be more careful how you pitch your plans. The other crtical aspect of inviting friends to found anything, is i believe the invitation gets accepted as part of a gift exchange, a social re-inforcement. The exact opposite of what business is about at almost any stage. I should qualify who my friends were, they were friends of family and friends i'd made through accidental contacts. Profound social and intellectual differences made sure we never got too comfortable. If you have a competant friend who is nothing like you at all, that might just be the kind of friend you can work with. As for single founders, what ever happened to finding a benevolent (not financially) mentor? Don't people speak across generations any more? I mean, everyone ought to know someone old enough to be able to offer a metric assload of perspective & humor in the face of any adversity you're experiencing. Don't be sniffy about thinking of someone as a mentor - manager. Yup, i said manager. Pay them a cut, like you were acting talent. But only for the period. Then if that went well you've a good chance they'll invest capital. (bootstrap scenario only there though). I have a suspicion that a lot of scale - out ideas pivot on something so narrow that a single coder can attack it. If the pivot is intellectually or academically deep, i doubt a team will solve it. How many Fields' prizes go to teams?
mayava 16y ago
I wonder what the optimal similarity/difference threshold is for successful co-founder relationships. You'll want to be different enough so that you can merge your expertise and cover more ground, but then if education / background / philosophies / life stage are too divergent, as in the case with you being in uni and your co-founder running a family, you're likely to disagree on major issues or have different levels of commitment/skill.

pierrefar 16y ago

If you have friends or relatives or a partner in your life, you are never alone. Yes! I don't think this is said enough. I was having this exact chat with my wife last night. I'm working as a freelancer while building a startup and she's supporting me 100%. What were talking about is how a husband-wife team would look to potential investors when clearly one person is doing the most of the visible work, but couldn't do as much without the other. And one thing that came up is equity and how that could play out. I wish I had a good answer.

maukdaddy 16y ago
This is a topic we should discuss more on HN. Both my wife and myself are currently working on an evening MBA program. People are shocked that we are able to do it at the same time, take classes together, etc. I don't understand, because I find that we end up supporting each other, motivating each other, etc. Along the same lines, I would definitely love to run a company with my wife one day. Most people I meet are aghast when I suggest running a company with a spouse. Is this idea really that rare?
- mayava 16y ago
  Thanks for the comments, guys. I'm definitely interested in exploring co-founder relationships further. Seems to me that bringing on a "good friend" as a co-founder is a treacherous path (either take off or crash and burn), but most husband/wife, brother/sister, and very very best friends co-founder relationships seem to work out. Perhaps the extreme closeness allows the parties to communicate more openly, be more committed, or better understand and accommodate each others' weaknesses.

Be_Silly 16y ago

I'm consistently baffled by this co-founder obsession also. The oldest advice in the book used to be "Don't do business with friends." For some values of co-founder this could mean new friends. Friends without deep references are a dangerous lot! And you can't google character or find it on FB. Or anywhere where someone is their own biographer, meaning the entire internet for 99.999% of all humans. But you sure as heck can dig, suggest partying out with their college years buddies, and see for yourself. Be serious about this. Be unafraid of loosing endless friends and potential friends because you have to make hurtful analyses of them. But smile and admit your fallibility whilst doing so. Funnily it's often as not those i character assasinate who call me. I've always had issues with this age old "don't work with friends" advice, because i worked many years with very close friends, but i realize there were some very exceptional circumstances. My suspicious mind says that if a investor wants multiple co-founders, he's hedging or planning divide and rule, or hoping the options pool rotation will balance in his favor because inevitably once the founder sample increases, so does the chance of departures. Listen to who advocates the advice and what's their position. On some projects however i have invited in people i knew well and who were friends (not the above) and it's been beyond disasterous. Fail is too complimentary. Something has to happen before it can fail. My guess, just a take on this, is that if you have a buddy who is used to seeing you take an active role, take a lead in discussing circumstances and problems, they actually end up identifying you as that kind of person, that that's your identity, role, raison d'etre. So they step back, because that's how they perceive you. Thus, you get dumped with the work. Society does divide itself into specialisms. Yours just happens to be doing shit, theirs observing or finding tangential ways to benefit from reflected glory. Those guys talk bloody great game by the way. If you talk great game, the problem is you're pre-selecting those who want to be sold something. You're selling them, they are therefore choosing your offer, they are passive. You are freaking selling them. So they think you benefit just by their saying "yes". Unless they give you cash when they say yes, be more careful how you pitch your plans. The other crtical aspect of inviting friends to found anything, is i believe the invitation gets accepted as part of a gift exchange, a social re-inforcement. The exact opposite of what business is about at almost any stage. I should qualify who my friends were, they were friends of family and friends i'd made through accidental contacts. Profound social and intellectual differences made sure we never got too comfortable. If you have a competant friend who is nothing like you at all, that might just be the kind of friend you can work with. As for single founders, what ever happened to finding a benevolent (not financially) mentor? Don't people speak across generations any more? I mean, everyone ought to know someone old enough to be able to offer a metric assload of perspective & humor in the face of any adversity you're experiencing. Don't be sniffy about thinking of someone as a mentor - manager. Yup, i said manager. Pay them a cut, like you were acting talent. But only for the period. Then if that went well you've a good chance they'll invest capital. (bootstrap scenario only there though). I have a suspicion that a lot of scale - out ideas pivot on something so narrow that a single coder can attack it. If the pivot is intellectually or academically deep, i doubt a team will solve it. How many Fields' prizes go to teams?

mayava 16y ago

I wonder what the optimal similarity/difference threshold is for successful co-founder relationships. You'll want to be different enough so that you can merge your expertise and cover more ground, but then if education / background / philosophies / life stage are too divergent, as in the case with you being in uni and your co-founder running a family, you're likely to disagree on major issues or have different levels of commitment/skill.