4 ms·

The article for the most part ignores the actual techniques that are used to push viewpoints across that actually work. One small one I remember. Imagine you wa

by moomin 9y ago

The article for the most part ignores the actual techniques that are used to push viewpoints across that actually work. One small one I remember. Imagine you want people to believe X. Imagine Wikipedia currently reads. A says X but B says not X. You edit it to read A says X but left-wing commentator B says not X. The qualification "left-wing commentator" is, for the purposes of this discussion, entirely accurate. However, the effect is that B now looks like they're biased whilst A, with no qualifying adjectives, looks impartial. Now consider that it's entirely possible that A is _also_ accurately described as a "left-wing commentator" and you see why this stuff is so pernicious. Anything about Israel/Palestine is crawling with minor edits like this.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
dotancohen 9y ago
Israeli here, supporter of equality among men and just rights for all. Wikipedia is just reflecting reality here. Even in Israel, unbiased narratives are very difficult to find from either side. This is compounded by the self-hating Jew phenomenon [1] and the issue that many Palestinians actually _prefer_ living in a modern, Western democracy as opposed to the kingdoms and dictatorships which are the traditional Arab norma. So we have people on _both sides_ arguing for _both sides_, often using subtle trickery such as weasel words, unjustified quantifiers and adjectives, and selected elimination. Being a technically advanced country, this spills out onto the Internet and Wikipedia. Personally, being involved in the situation, a _lack_ of such trickery on Wikipedia would raise more red flags for me than its presence. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-hating_Jew https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-hating_Jew
- dotancohen 9y ago
  So much fun watching the points on parent post climb up and down. It's one thing when people post opposing viewpoints, it's another when a post is voted on (in either direction) based on the poster's affiliation. Mud slinging all around.
  - vetinari 9y ago
    Another fun thing is to watch the time, when the comments are going up or down. Then you can see, what is the prevailing affiliation among those tho vote in Asia/Europe/Americas.
    - Malice 9y ago
      It would be cool to have that visually presented for controversial topics. Your observation never occurred to me before, good stuff :)
- umanwizard 9y ago
  Most Palestinians don’t really have the option of living in a Western-style democracy, as they don’t live in Israel and haven’t been granted Israeli citizenship. Arabs with Israeli citizenship are a small minority of Palestinians.
  - dotancohen 9y ago
    Thank you, you are right. I erroneously used the term Palestinians to refer to those who live in the West Bank, as those who live west of the Green Line identify more with Israel than with the PA or formally PLO. I've never had opportune to have a good discussion with Gaza residents, unfortunately. You are right that the Christian and Muslim citizens of the West Bank (I'll just say Palestinians in interest of brevity) do _not_ enjoy the full benefits of citizenship, and are in fact treated poorly by the state compared to their Jewish neighbors. I'm one of their Jewish neighbors (I live in the West Bank) and we see it daily. However, these people (from what they tell me) do recognize that even with Israeli-imposed curfews e.g. on Yom Kippor, and restricted rights compared to Jews, they still live better than their brothers in Jordan and other Arab states. They drink cleaner water, have better job security, better health care, better education, better chances to improve the livelyhood of their children, and so many other advantages compared to Jordanian, Syrian, or Egyptians. This is coming from them, as I always take an opportunity to ask. Of course, I would love to see them enjoy the same rights as I do. I don't see them as competition, rather I believe that we both flourish together when we cooperate. But even without all the benefits of a Western-style democracy that the government _could_ provide to them, they still prefer that government to the alternatives that they see right next door.

by moomin 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

dotancohen 9y ago

Israeli here, supporter of equality among men and just rights for all. Wikipedia is just reflecting reality here. Even in Israel, unbiased narratives are very difficult to find from either side. This is compounded by the self-hating Jew phenomenon [1] and the issue that many Palestinians actually _prefer_ living in a modern, Western democracy as opposed to the kingdoms and dictatorships which are the traditional Arab norma. So we have people on _both sides_ arguing for _both sides_, often using subtle trickery such as weasel words, unjustified quantifiers and adjectives, and selected elimination. Being a technically advanced country, this spills out onto the Internet and Wikipedia. Personally, being involved in the situation, a _lack_ of such trickery on Wikipedia would raise more red flags for me than its presence. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-hating_Jew https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-hating_Jew

dotancohen 9y ago
So much fun watching the points on parent post climb up and down. It's one thing when people post opposing viewpoints, it's another when a post is voted on (in either direction) based on the poster's affiliation. Mud slinging all around.
- vetinari 9y ago
  Another fun thing is to watch the time, when the comments are going up or down. Then you can see, what is the prevailing affiliation among those tho vote in Asia/Europe/Americas.
  - Malice 9y ago
    It would be cool to have that visually presented for controversial topics. Your observation never occurred to me before, good stuff :)
umanwizard 9y ago
Most Palestinians don’t really have the option of living in a Western-style democracy, as they don’t live in Israel and haven’t been granted Israeli citizenship. Arabs with Israeli citizenship are a small minority of Palestinians.
- dotancohen 9y ago
  Thank you, you are right. I erroneously used the term Palestinians to refer to those who live in the West Bank, as those who live west of the Green Line identify more with Israel than with the PA or formally PLO. I've never had opportune to have a good discussion with Gaza residents, unfortunately. You are right that the Christian and Muslim citizens of the West Bank (I'll just say Palestinians in interest of brevity) do _not_ enjoy the full benefits of citizenship, and are in fact treated poorly by the state compared to their Jewish neighbors. I'm one of their Jewish neighbors (I live in the West Bank) and we see it daily. However, these people (from what they tell me) do recognize that even with Israeli-imposed curfews e.g. on Yom Kippor, and restricted rights compared to Jews, they still live better than their brothers in Jordan and other Arab states. They drink cleaner water, have better job security, better health care, better education, better chances to improve the livelyhood of their children, and so many other advantages compared to Jordanian, Syrian, or Egyptians. This is coming from them, as I always take an opportunity to ask. Of course, I would love to see them enjoy the same rights as I do. I don't see them as competition, rather I believe that we both flourish together when we cooperate. But even without all the benefits of a Western-style democracy that the government _could_ provide to them, they still prefer that government to the alternatives that they see right next door.