4 ms·

>Is this a legitimate leadership technique? Perhaps it is for the Finnish. Check out "management by perkele" https://infogalactic.com/info/Management_by_perkel

>Is this a legitimate leadership technique? Perhaps it is for the Finnish. Check out "management by perkele" https://infogalactic.com/info/Management_by_perkele https://infogalactic.com/info/Management_by_perkele https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_profanity#perkele https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_profanity#perkele

lostboys67 9y ago
A system designed to bully a mainly conscript army doesn't really work in the work place :-) This approach also doesn't work in modern professional armies note that from the beginning SF Troops (starting with the SAS) are very informal.
watwut 9y ago
There is no direct command nor "swift decision making over prolonged pondering of many alternatives before making a decision" in that quote. All it is is calling people fucking morons in (most likely) hope that they are less likely argue back if arguing makes you a moron instead of someone engaging in meritocratic open discussion. I don't really mind people swearing, but attempts to frame that as something noble when it is nothing but emotions targetting argumentation technique are ridiculous.
tree_of_item 9y ago
I really hate this excuse. "Oh, it's okay that he's an asshole, he's European!!"
- geofft 9y ago
  I think this is what I've heard referred to on conservative forums as "the soft bigotry of low expectations." It's arguing that he doesn't know any better, he acts this way because that's how his people act. That sort of reasoning has historically led nowhere good, and it's pretty insulting to everyone of his race who's capable of not being an asshole.
  - carlmr 9y ago
    I've met really nice Finish guys, so probably not everyone is an asshole. Communication culture in Northern Europe is a lot more direct than what I experienced in North America though. So it's not low expectations, there is a real difference in cultures here. What might seem extreme in an American context might be just the top end of the "directness" scale in Finland. Bigotry of low expectations is something like saying voter ID is racist because black people don't have voter IDs and are not reasonably expected to be able to obtain them.
    - eru 9y ago
      As a German in Britain, lots of the politeness and round-about-ness I see here would be seen as wasting people's time back home, or even worse, been interpreted as implying a need for coddling.
    - geofft 9y ago
      > What might seem extreme in an American context might be just the top end of the "directness" scale in Finland. Sure. But he knows that, right? In which case participating in an international project with the extreme of norms in your homeland is not a "he can't help it" situation. It's no different from me saying "I'm not Finnish, but I really like Finnish culture, so I'm going to be an asshole." I'm still choosing to be an asshole. > Bigotry of low expectations is something like saying voter ID is racist because black people don't have voter IDs and are not reasonably expected to be able to obtain them. (This is mostly off topic, but the standard claim here is that the legal system makes it intentionally difficult for black people, or people who live in majority black areas, or poor people to obtain voter IDs. I don't think I've seen a serious argument that anyone actually thinks black people are racially less competent at getting IDs.)
- cisanti 9y ago
  It might not be an excuse, but judging by the things people are offended by in America, it really is a cultural difference. I dare you to find European devs who believe terms slave and master in tech context are offensive and should be replaced.
  - lostboys67 9y ago
    I've never seen that care to share an example - but non native speakers can often make accidently offensive mistakes using the informal Du verses Sie. I also saw a Swedish guy suggest (on a Stack Overflow Site) that some one with the first name Mohammed change this to his "White" name of Martin - they seemed totally oblivious of what they just sugested
  - yosamino 9y ago
    > I dare you to find European devs who believe terms slave and master in tech context are offensive and should be replaced. What's with the Europeans or Americans believing all sorts of generalized falsehoods about their counterparts ? Of course there are European developers who hold such beliefs.
    - cisanti 9y ago
      I'm sure there are, but the majority of Europeans would believe this is absurd and nonsense. You understood very well what I meant.
      - yosamino 9y ago
        As would the majority of US devs. I just don't think there is a big difference.
  - zimpenfish 9y ago
    > I dare you to find European devs who believe terms slave and master in tech context are offensive and should be replaced. Oh, hello, I'm a European dev and I'm making a concerted effort to remove those terms both from my vocabulary and any code / tickets / documentation I come across.
- baybal2 9y ago
  I'm often puzzled by what things Americans find offensive, and how random that gets. Americans range from "tough," to ones who just can't wait to find another pretense to claim themselves being offended by something.

lostboys67 9y ago

A system designed to bully a mainly conscript army doesn't really work in the work place :-) This approach also doesn't work in modern professional armies note that from the beginning SF Troops (starting with the SAS) are very informal.

watwut 9y ago

There is no direct command nor "swift decision making over prolonged pondering of many alternatives before making a decision" in that quote. All it is is calling people fucking morons in (most likely) hope that they are less likely argue back if arguing makes you a moron instead of someone engaging in meritocratic open discussion. I don't really mind people swearing, but attempts to frame that as something noble when it is nothing but emotions targetting argumentation technique are ridiculous.

tree_of_item 9y ago

I really hate this excuse. "Oh, it's okay that he's an asshole, he's European!!"

geofft 9y ago
I think this is what I've heard referred to on conservative forums as "the soft bigotry of low expectations." It's arguing that he doesn't know any better, he acts this way because that's how his people act. That sort of reasoning has historically led nowhere good, and it's pretty insulting to everyone of his race who's capable of not being an asshole.
- carlmr 9y ago
  I've met really nice Finish guys, so probably not everyone is an asshole. Communication culture in Northern Europe is a lot more direct than what I experienced in North America though. So it's not low expectations, there is a real difference in cultures here. What might seem extreme in an American context might be just the top end of the "directness" scale in Finland. Bigotry of low expectations is something like saying voter ID is racist because black people don't have voter IDs and are not reasonably expected to be able to obtain them.
  - eru 9y ago
    As a German in Britain, lots of the politeness and round-about-ness I see here would be seen as wasting people's time back home, or even worse, been interpreted as implying a need for coddling.
  - geofft 9y ago
    > What might seem extreme in an American context might be just the top end of the "directness" scale in Finland. Sure. But he knows that, right? In which case participating in an international project with the extreme of norms in your homeland is not a "he can't help it" situation. It's no different from me saying "I'm not Finnish, but I really like Finnish culture, so I'm going to be an asshole." I'm still choosing to be an asshole. > Bigotry of low expectations is something like saying voter ID is racist because black people don't have voter IDs and are not reasonably expected to be able to obtain them. (This is mostly off topic, but the standard claim here is that the legal system makes it intentionally difficult for black people, or people who live in majority black areas, or poor people to obtain voter IDs. I don't think I've seen a serious argument that anyone actually thinks black people are racially less competent at getting IDs.)
cisanti 9y ago
It might not be an excuse, but judging by the things people are offended by in America, it really is a cultural difference. I dare you to find European devs who believe terms slave and master in tech context are offensive and should be replaced.
- lostboys67 9y ago
  I've never seen that care to share an example - but non native speakers can often make accidently offensive mistakes using the informal Du verses Sie. I also saw a Swedish guy suggest (on a Stack Overflow Site) that some one with the first name Mohammed change this to his "White" name of Martin - they seemed totally oblivious of what they just sugested
- yosamino 9y ago
  > I dare you to find European devs who believe terms slave and master in tech context are offensive and should be replaced. What's with the Europeans or Americans believing all sorts of generalized falsehoods about their counterparts ? Of course there are European developers who hold such beliefs.
  - cisanti 9y ago
    I'm sure there are, but the majority of Europeans would believe this is absurd and nonsense. You understood very well what I meant.
    - yosamino 9y ago
      As would the majority of US devs. I just don't think there is a big difference.
- zimpenfish 9y ago
  > I dare you to find European devs who believe terms slave and master in tech context are offensive and should be replaced. Oh, hello, I'm a European dev and I'm making a concerted effort to remove those terms both from my vocabulary and any code / tickets / documentation I come across.
baybal2 9y ago
I'm often puzzled by what things Americans find offensive, and how random that gets. Americans range from "tough," to ones who just can't wait to find another pretense to claim themselves being offended by something.