4 ms·

What opportunity are you referring to?

nerdponx 9y ago
There was a referendum to hold a constitutional convention which would be able to propose amendments to the state constitution. For some reason I still don't quite understand, labor unions were viciously opposed to it, supposedly because they were afraid of losing their pensions.
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > For some reason I still don't quite understand, labor unions were viciously opposed to it, supposedly because they were afraid of losing their pensions That's the excuse they gave, but the real reason is simple. Labor unions already wield disproportionately massive power over the legislature in NY. Any attempt to reform NY government and hold elected officials more accountable to voters would inherently weaken some of their power, by comparison. Labor unions don't want voters to have power for the same reason elected officials don't.
  - murph-almighty 9y ago
    Their argument was that corporate interests and lobbyists would have proposed amendments that didn't serve to benefit the citizens of NY. Given that Citizens United is a thing, I can't blame them.
    - chimeracoder 9y ago
      > Their argument was that corporate interests and lobbyists would have proposed amendments that didn't serve to benefit the citizens of NY. Given that Citizens United is a thing, I can't blame them. They actively spread misinformation, among other things telling people that the convention would have the power to adopt amendments. Any amendment would still have to go to a direct referendum anyway, so it's not like voters wouldn't have to explicitly approve the amendments. This referendum was about starting the process - arguing against it because lobbyists might propose something bad makes no sense, unless you also forbid the legislature from proposing constitutional amendments too. And that's why "corporate interests and lobbyists" wouldn't use this process to propose amendments benefiting their own interests, because they already have the ability to do that, through the legislature. The point of the referendum is to balance this - every twenty years, voters are supposed to have an opportunity to check thr power of lobbyists and legislators directly. Since New York doesn't do ballot initiatives the way other states do, it's the only way for New Yorkers to vote directly on statewide policy like this. In fact, this was literally the argument they used. "Why should we pay millions of dollars for a convention, when we already have a process for amending the constitution?" Of course, this argument conveniently omits the fact that the whole reason this referendum is required to be held every twenty years is to serve as a check against special interest groups capturing legislators... which is exactly what they've already done!
- emodendroket 9y ago
  Not up enough on New York state politics to know what the legislature looked like when this happened, but constitutional conventions are a little dicey since only God knows what will come out of them and be almost permanently committed to law. The 1789 US constitutional convention ended up with something entirely different from the Articles of Confederation, for instance.
- ataturk 9y ago
  I used to live in NY State. Grew up there. To the uninitiated eye, everything appears fine. It's only because I was related to some people in government, in particular a mayor, that I know how bad the corruption really is. I don't think it ever get fixed. Corruption in NY is a daily way of life and the further downstate you go, the worse it gets. If the people in my family were corrupt and getting paid cash and kickbacks, then there is absolutely no end to how deep it goes. I won't say anymore because I still have relatives living there, albeit very elderly ones, and they are so fed up with NY that they wish for a revolution, even if the revolution makes everything worse. The logic being that at least some of the guilty would probably be killed. And no, what's wrong in NY won't get sorted out any other way. It can't--the power grab was so total and so complete there than it's a black hole from which no good can ever escape.

There was a referendum to hold a constitutional convention which would be able to propose amendments to the state constitution. For some reason I still don't quite understand, labor unions were viciously opposed to it, supposedly because they were afraid of losing their pensions.

chimeracoder 9y ago
> For some reason I still don't quite understand, labor unions were viciously opposed to it, supposedly because they were afraid of losing their pensions That's the excuse they gave, but the real reason is simple. Labor unions already wield disproportionately massive power over the legislature in NY. Any attempt to reform NY government and hold elected officials more accountable to voters would inherently weaken some of their power, by comparison. Labor unions don't want voters to have power for the same reason elected officials don't.
- murph-almighty 9y ago
  Their argument was that corporate interests and lobbyists would have proposed amendments that didn't serve to benefit the citizens of NY. Given that Citizens United is a thing, I can't blame them.
  - chimeracoder 9y ago
    > Their argument was that corporate interests and lobbyists would have proposed amendments that didn't serve to benefit the citizens of NY. Given that Citizens United is a thing, I can't blame them. They actively spread misinformation, among other things telling people that the convention would have the power to adopt amendments. Any amendment would still have to go to a direct referendum anyway, so it's not like voters wouldn't have to explicitly approve the amendments. This referendum was about starting the process - arguing against it because lobbyists might propose something bad makes no sense, unless you also forbid the legislature from proposing constitutional amendments too. And that's why "corporate interests and lobbyists" wouldn't use this process to propose amendments benefiting their own interests, because they already have the ability to do that, through the legislature. The point of the referendum is to balance this - every twenty years, voters are supposed to have an opportunity to check thr power of lobbyists and legislators directly. Since New York doesn't do ballot initiatives the way other states do, it's the only way for New Yorkers to vote directly on statewide policy like this. In fact, this was literally the argument they used. "Why should we pay millions of dollars for a convention, when we already have a process for amending the constitution?" Of course, this argument conveniently omits the fact that the whole reason this referendum is required to be held every twenty years is to serve as a check against special interest groups capturing legislators... which is exactly what they've already done!
emodendroket 9y ago
Not up enough on New York state politics to know what the legislature looked like when this happened, but constitutional conventions are a little dicey since only God knows what will come out of them and be almost permanently committed to law. The 1789 US constitutional convention ended up with something entirely different from the Articles of Confederation, for instance.
ataturk 9y ago
I used to live in NY State. Grew up there. To the uninitiated eye, everything appears fine. It's only because I was related to some people in government, in particular a mayor, that I know how bad the corruption really is. I don't think it ever get fixed. Corruption in NY is a daily way of life and the further downstate you go, the worse it gets. If the people in my family were corrupt and getting paid cash and kickbacks, then there is absolutely no end to how deep it goes. I won't say anymore because I still have relatives living there, albeit very elderly ones, and they are so fed up with NY that they wish for a revolution, even if the revolution makes everything worse. The logic being that at least some of the guilty would probably be killed. And no, what's wrong in NY won't get sorted out any other way. It can't--the power grab was so total and so complete there than it's a black hole from which no good can ever escape.