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The biggest problem is that the New York government at city and state levels is one of the most corrupt, oligarchic and undemocratic organizations in modern soc

The biggest problem is that the New York government at city and state levels is one of the most corrupt, oligarchic and undemocratic organizations in modern society. I cannot begin to describe how broken it is. We could have voted to reform the constitution and then stayed engaged enough to pick independent delegates instead of the same old insiders catering to special interests. But we collectively let the insiders and special interests talk us out of our once in twenty years opportunity to fix this nightmare.

kenferry 9y ago
What opportunity are you referring to?
- nerdponx 9y ago
  There was a referendum to hold a constitutional convention which would be able to propose amendments to the state constitution. For some reason I still don't quite understand, labor unions were viciously opposed to it, supposedly because they were afraid of losing their pensions.
  - chimeracoder 9y ago
    > For some reason I still don't quite understand, labor unions were viciously opposed to it, supposedly because they were afraid of losing their pensions That's the excuse they gave, but the real reason is simple. Labor unions already wield disproportionately massive power over the legislature in NY. Any attempt to reform NY government and hold elected officials more accountable to voters would inherently weaken some of their power, by comparison. Labor unions don't want voters to have power for the same reason elected officials don't.
    - murph-almighty 9y ago
      Their argument was that corporate interests and lobbyists would have proposed amendments that didn't serve to benefit the citizens of NY. Given that Citizens United is a thing, I can't blame them.
      - chimeracoder 9y ago
        > Their argument was that corporate interests and lobbyists would have proposed amendments that didn't serve to benefit the citizens of NY. Given that Citizens United is a thing, I can't blame them. They actively spread misinformation, among other things telling people that the convention would have the power to adopt amendments. Any amendment would still have to go to a direct referendum anyway, so it's not like voters wouldn't have to explicitly approve the amendments. This referendum was about starting the process - arguing against it because lobbyists might propose something bad makes no sense, unless you also forbid the legislature from proposing constitutional amendments too. And that's why "corporate interests and lobbyists" wouldn't use this process to propose amendments benefiting their own interests, because they already have the ability to do that, through the legislature. The point of the referendum is to balance this - every twenty years, voters are supposed to have an opportunity to check thr power of lobbyists and legislators directly. Since New York doesn't do ballot initiatives the way other states do, it's the only way for New Yorkers to vote directly on statewide policy like this. In fact, this was literally the argument they used. "Why should we pay millions of dollars for a convention, when we already have a process for amending the constitution?" Of course, this argument conveniently omits the fact that the whole reason this referendum is required to be held every twenty years is to serve as a check against special interest groups capturing legislators... which is exactly what they've already done!
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    Not up enough on New York state politics to know what the legislature looked like when this happened, but constitutional conventions are a little dicey since only God knows what will come out of them and be almost permanently committed to law. The 1789 US constitutional convention ended up with something entirely different from the Articles of Confederation, for instance.
  - ataturk 9y ago
    I used to live in NY State. Grew up there. To the uninitiated eye, everything appears fine. It's only because I was related to some people in government, in particular a mayor, that I know how bad the corruption really is. I don't think it ever get fixed. Corruption in NY is a daily way of life and the further downstate you go, the worse it gets. If the people in my family were corrupt and getting paid cash and kickbacks, then there is absolutely no end to how deep it goes. I won't say anymore because I still have relatives living there, albeit very elderly ones, and they are so fed up with NY that they wish for a revolution, even if the revolution makes everything worse. The logic being that at least some of the guilty would probably be killed. And no, what's wrong in NY won't get sorted out any other way. It can't--the power grab was so total and so complete there than it's a black hole from which no good can ever escape.
ZillBurned 9y ago
The Constitution is not flawed it's the powerful who ignore it that's the problem. The two most populated states have the very worst policies and on an epic scale. You wouldn't get them to change their corrupt ways no matter what changes are made. There's no going back. Strength is in their numbers even if you drew a picture of how it's going to end up they will argue their weak to ridiculous points to the very bitter end. California is particularly difficult to accept. They have ruined one of the most beautiful areas of our country. For what? To keep their lifestyle in their gated mansions. The peons be damned. We suffer the most gross injustices in decades.
jmh530 9y ago
My girlfriend thought it was for a Federal constitutional convention...
- murph-almighty 9y ago
  There is a movement for a constitutional convention via state conventions floating around. I had a lot of trouble figuring out their agenda though. Given that Citizens United is a thing and that Bob Menendez somehow wasn't convicted in a pretty cut-and-dry bribery case, I don't think I want a constitutional amendment any time soon.
Spooky23 9y ago
Give me a break. The political conditions right now made it incredibly dumb to do a convention now. With the ridiculous court decisions that have been made, the governor has unlimited, nearly unchecked power via the budget process. If you are happy or unhappy with anything, credit/blame needs to be directed at whomever the governor is from Spitzer forward.
wan23 9y ago
The way New Yorkers got conned out of having a con con is the most disappointing thing that happened in politics this year IMO. It's amazing how pretty much every organization and politician right and left got together to oppose a chance for meaningful change.

kenferry 9y ago

What opportunity are you referring to?

nerdponx 9y ago
There was a referendum to hold a constitutional convention which would be able to propose amendments to the state constitution. For some reason I still don't quite understand, labor unions were viciously opposed to it, supposedly because they were afraid of losing their pensions.
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > For some reason I still don't quite understand, labor unions were viciously opposed to it, supposedly because they were afraid of losing their pensions That's the excuse they gave, but the real reason is simple. Labor unions already wield disproportionately massive power over the legislature in NY. Any attempt to reform NY government and hold elected officials more accountable to voters would inherently weaken some of their power, by comparison. Labor unions don't want voters to have power for the same reason elected officials don't.
  - murph-almighty 9y ago
    Their argument was that corporate interests and lobbyists would have proposed amendments that didn't serve to benefit the citizens of NY. Given that Citizens United is a thing, I can't blame them.
    - chimeracoder 9y ago
      > Their argument was that corporate interests and lobbyists would have proposed amendments that didn't serve to benefit the citizens of NY. Given that Citizens United is a thing, I can't blame them. They actively spread misinformation, among other things telling people that the convention would have the power to adopt amendments. Any amendment would still have to go to a direct referendum anyway, so it's not like voters wouldn't have to explicitly approve the amendments. This referendum was about starting the process - arguing against it because lobbyists might propose something bad makes no sense, unless you also forbid the legislature from proposing constitutional amendments too. And that's why "corporate interests and lobbyists" wouldn't use this process to propose amendments benefiting their own interests, because they already have the ability to do that, through the legislature. The point of the referendum is to balance this - every twenty years, voters are supposed to have an opportunity to check thr power of lobbyists and legislators directly. Since New York doesn't do ballot initiatives the way other states do, it's the only way for New Yorkers to vote directly on statewide policy like this. In fact, this was literally the argument they used. "Why should we pay millions of dollars for a convention, when we already have a process for amending the constitution?" Of course, this argument conveniently omits the fact that the whole reason this referendum is required to be held every twenty years is to serve as a check against special interest groups capturing legislators... which is exactly what they've already done!
- emodendroket 9y ago
  Not up enough on New York state politics to know what the legislature looked like when this happened, but constitutional conventions are a little dicey since only God knows what will come out of them and be almost permanently committed to law. The 1789 US constitutional convention ended up with something entirely different from the Articles of Confederation, for instance.
- ataturk 9y ago
  I used to live in NY State. Grew up there. To the uninitiated eye, everything appears fine. It's only because I was related to some people in government, in particular a mayor, that I know how bad the corruption really is. I don't think it ever get fixed. Corruption in NY is a daily way of life and the further downstate you go, the worse it gets. If the people in my family were corrupt and getting paid cash and kickbacks, then there is absolutely no end to how deep it goes. I won't say anymore because I still have relatives living there, albeit very elderly ones, and they are so fed up with NY that they wish for a revolution, even if the revolution makes everything worse. The logic being that at least some of the guilty would probably be killed. And no, what's wrong in NY won't get sorted out any other way. It can't--the power grab was so total and so complete there than it's a black hole from which no good can ever escape.

ZillBurned 9y ago

The Constitution is not flawed it's the powerful who ignore it that's the problem. The two most populated states have the very worst policies and on an epic scale. You wouldn't get them to change their corrupt ways no matter what changes are made. There's no going back. Strength is in their numbers even if you drew a picture of how it's going to end up they will argue their weak to ridiculous points to the very bitter end. California is particularly difficult to accept. They have ruined one of the most beautiful areas of our country. For what? To keep their lifestyle in their gated mansions. The peons be damned. We suffer the most gross injustices in decades.

jmh530 9y ago

My girlfriend thought it was for a Federal constitutional convention...

murph-almighty 9y ago
There is a movement for a constitutional convention via state conventions floating around. I had a lot of trouble figuring out their agenda though. Given that Citizens United is a thing and that Bob Menendez somehow wasn't convicted in a pretty cut-and-dry bribery case, I don't think I want a constitutional amendment any time soon.

Spooky23 9y ago

Give me a break. The political conditions right now made it incredibly dumb to do a convention now. With the ridiculous court decisions that have been made, the governor has unlimited, nearly unchecked power via the budget process. If you are happy or unhappy with anything, credit/blame needs to be directed at whomever the governor is from Spitzer forward.

wan23 9y ago

The way New Yorkers got conned out of having a con con is the most disappointing thing that happened in politics this year IMO. It's amazing how pretty much every organization and politician right and left got together to oppose a chance for meaningful change.