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I know this isn't a popular idea but any thoughts on why privatizing them is a bad idea? It works in Japan. There are at least 10 train/subway companies in Toky

I know this isn't a popular idea but any thoughts on why privatizing them is a bad idea? It works in Japan. There are at least 10 train/subway companies in Tokyo alone. JR, Tokyu, Keikyu, Keio, Odakyu, Eidan, Seibu, Tobu, Toei, Keisei and they seem to be best in class by most measures.

rhizome 9y ago
I know this isn't a popular idea but any thoughts on why privatizing them is a bad idea? It works in Japan. The particular competitive business environment in the US makes it almost impossible.
Larrikin 9y ago
I believe it works because it was already a good system before being privatized. Most of the cost of building the system and making it work well was done when it was private. Even now the best system in Tokyo, Tokyo Metro, is a joint venture by two different governments
AznHisoka 9y ago
On that same idea, I would love to see private buses replace the subway. There is a large van that takes 15-20 people from Queens to Chinatown that runs everyday 12 hours a day and it costs under $5. Would love to see similar systems for Queens -> Times Square or Brooklyn -> wall street.
- mjmahone17 9y ago
  Yes, let’s have more deadly, congestion-inducing, loud and smog-producing private buses filling up our streets, rather than making a cheap, electrified mass transit system better. The Queens to Chinatown bus fills a gap in services from Flushing to Chinatown. If that bus is really transporting multiple subway trains worth of people each day, that in my mind means we ought to build better mass transit between those two places. Not that we should cannibalize our working people-moving infrastructure for something worse.
  - cgmg 9y ago
    > Not that we should cannibalize our working (!) people-moving infrastructure for something worse. > Cannibalize What's wrong with cannibalizing a system that's fundamentally broken?
    - maksimum 9y ago
      Subway isn't fundamentally broken; mis-aligned management incentives are...
- jcranmer 9y ago
  Trains just have so much higher capacity than roads. A single lane of highway traffic can handle about 2,000 cars per hour, and that of a surface street probably more like 1,000 cars per hour, while a track of railway can handle 24-30 trains per hour. Trains themselves can carry 1000-1500 people (albeit not comfortably on the high-end), which means you're looking at 25k-45k people/hour/lane on a train. You can't compete with that by road unless you have tons of buses converging on a dedicated busway for a trunk commute (something like this happens in the Lincoln Tunnel).
specialp 9y ago
The NYC subway system started as 3 organizations; only one of which was city owned. I am normally not for privatization but it is probably the only thing that can save the MTA. The NYT points out a lack of funding but really their funding has not dropped tremendously. Politicians do not have the right mindset to run this. Sure Democrats tend to spend more on infrastructure, but then support obscene union contracts. MTA police make 130k + The LIRR has conductors that clip tickets getting paid 80k base with tons of overtime and benefits. The maintenance workers are (un)lucky if they work more than 3 hrs a day. There is nothing that is going to change with this unless someone goes in and rips it apart as the union is politically powerful and politicians have other interests than running the subway properly.
- gggvvh 9y ago
  > MTA police make 130k+ Do you actually know a real person who makes that much, or are you just parroting?
  - beisner 9y ago
    Article from 2010. Apparently a major chunk comes from overtime. https://www.newsday.com/news/new-york/mta-police-bring-in-big-money-through-overtime-1.1897480 https://www.newsday.com/news/new-york/mta-police-bring-in-bi...
  - L_Rahman 9y ago
    My uncle is one of those people who sits in subway booths. He does almost nothing. He makes 80k a year. My political ideology is deeply in favor of the working class. I believe in strong worker protections, in the unionization of labor in most industries, and that capital controls a disproportionate amount of wealth and power in this country. But I must also insist that these costs are unfair and insane.
    - pravda 9y ago
      He makes a lot more than 80k a year! He's also getting about another 70k in benefits, for a total compensation well into the 6-figures. People wonder "why is the subway so filthy?" Well, if you wanted to hire people to keep the subways clean, they would have to be paid $100K+ in total compensation. Ok, so why not hire a private company to keep subways clean? A private company would be able to pay free-market compensation to hire cleaners. Can't do that either! Subways must stay filthy!
alphonsegaston 9y ago
The success of privatization is dependent on companies operating within a cultural baseline of decency and accountability. No such culture exists in the US.
MagnumOpus 9y ago
> It works in Japan However, it doesn't work in London. There are a dozen train franchises, remnants of the privatized and sliced-up British Rail system. They are all atrocious in service quality, frequency, capacity and usually price when compared to the parts of the system that were never privatised (the Underground) or that were renationalised (the Overground).
lmm 9y ago
Subway systems are a natural monopoly; privatising something when there's no real competition has limited benefits and can be actively harmful if it reduces accountability. It works in Japan because under the keiratsu system nominally private companies are still closely tied to the political system and each other, so they have accountability through that channel. Also a lot of the value created by a subway shows in land values rather than being captured directly in fares - the article says the MTA is 60% funded by fares which is high but, well, not 100%. You need a mechanism for those who benefit (i.e. owners of buildings near subway stations) to fund the subways. In some countries the transport authority will essentially own large shopping mall complexes around each station and fund the subway that way; in Japan employers often pay for workers' subway tickets.
indoordinosaur 9y ago
The world's best subway by many measures is the MTR in Hong Kong. Not only is it entirely privately run but it turns a profit which they then take to build more lines. The MTR Corporation is also building London's new 73 mile Crossrail line which opens up next year after being under construction for less than 10 years. 13 Miles of Crossrail is in underground tunnels beneath the densest part of the city. In terms a New Yorker would understand, this project is like if the entire length of the 2nd avenue subway in Manhattan got built along with extensions into the Bronx and Brooklyn in 10 years and under budget. I can't see NY selling off their subway to a private entity anytime soon but what if a Mayor allowed MTR or another corporation to come in and build a competing line in some part of the city? The amazingly efficient new line might light a fire under the ass of the broader NYC subway to start operating more efficiently. Or as the new line begins to make more profit it could buy NYC lines one by one until it's running most of it. This way the debt bomb of the MTA won't destroy the city because it won't affect all major transit lines.

rhizome 9y ago

I know this isn't a popular idea but any thoughts on why privatizing them is a bad idea? It works in Japan. The particular competitive business environment in the US makes it almost impossible.

Larrikin 9y ago

I believe it works because it was already a good system before being privatized. Most of the cost of building the system and making it work well was done when it was private. Even now the best system in Tokyo, Tokyo Metro, is a joint venture by two different governments

AznHisoka 9y ago

On that same idea, I would love to see private buses replace the subway. There is a large van that takes 15-20 people from Queens to Chinatown that runs everyday 12 hours a day and it costs under $5. Would love to see similar systems for Queens -> Times Square or Brooklyn -> wall street.

mjmahone17 9y ago
Yes, let’s have more deadly, congestion-inducing, loud and smog-producing private buses filling up our streets, rather than making a cheap, electrified mass transit system better. The Queens to Chinatown bus fills a gap in services from Flushing to Chinatown. If that bus is really transporting multiple subway trains worth of people each day, that in my mind means we ought to build better mass transit between those two places. Not that we should cannibalize our working people-moving infrastructure for something worse.
- cgmg 9y ago
  > Not that we should cannibalize our working (!) people-moving infrastructure for something worse. > Cannibalize What's wrong with cannibalizing a system that's fundamentally broken?
  - maksimum 9y ago
    Subway isn't fundamentally broken; mis-aligned management incentives are...
jcranmer 9y ago
Trains just have so much higher capacity than roads. A single lane of highway traffic can handle about 2,000 cars per hour, and that of a surface street probably more like 1,000 cars per hour, while a track of railway can handle 24-30 trains per hour. Trains themselves can carry 1000-1500 people (albeit not comfortably on the high-end), which means you're looking at 25k-45k people/hour/lane on a train. You can't compete with that by road unless you have tons of buses converging on a dedicated busway for a trunk commute (something like this happens in the Lincoln Tunnel).

specialp 9y ago

The NYC subway system started as 3 organizations; only one of which was city owned. I am normally not for privatization but it is probably the only thing that can save the MTA. The NYT points out a lack of funding but really their funding has not dropped tremendously. Politicians do not have the right mindset to run this. Sure Democrats tend to spend more on infrastructure, but then support obscene union contracts. MTA police make 130k + The LIRR has conductors that clip tickets getting paid 80k base with tons of overtime and benefits. The maintenance workers are (un)lucky if they work more than 3 hrs a day. There is nothing that is going to change with this unless someone goes in and rips it apart as the union is politically powerful and politicians have other interests than running the subway properly.

gggvvh 9y ago
> MTA police make 130k+ Do you actually know a real person who makes that much, or are you just parroting?
- beisner 9y ago
  Article from 2010. Apparently a major chunk comes from overtime. https://www.newsday.com/news/new-york/mta-police-bring-in-big-money-through-overtime-1.1897480 https://www.newsday.com/news/new-york/mta-police-bring-in-bi...
- L_Rahman 9y ago
  My uncle is one of those people who sits in subway booths. He does almost nothing. He makes 80k a year. My political ideology is deeply in favor of the working class. I believe in strong worker protections, in the unionization of labor in most industries, and that capital controls a disproportionate amount of wealth and power in this country. But I must also insist that these costs are unfair and insane.
  - pravda 9y ago
    He makes a lot more than 80k a year! He's also getting about another 70k in benefits, for a total compensation well into the 6-figures. People wonder "why is the subway so filthy?" Well, if you wanted to hire people to keep the subways clean, they would have to be paid $100K+ in total compensation. Ok, so why not hire a private company to keep subways clean? A private company would be able to pay free-market compensation to hire cleaners. Can't do that either! Subways must stay filthy!

alphonsegaston 9y ago

The success of privatization is dependent on companies operating within a cultural baseline of decency and accountability. No such culture exists in the US.

MagnumOpus 9y ago

> It works in Japan However, it doesn't work in London. There are a dozen train franchises, remnants of the privatized and sliced-up British Rail system. They are all atrocious in service quality, frequency, capacity and usually price when compared to the parts of the system that were never privatised (the Underground) or that were renationalised (the Overground).

lmm 9y ago

Subway systems are a natural monopoly; privatising something when there's no real competition has limited benefits and can be actively harmful if it reduces accountability. It works in Japan because under the keiratsu system nominally private companies are still closely tied to the political system and each other, so they have accountability through that channel. Also a lot of the value created by a subway shows in land values rather than being captured directly in fares - the article says the MTA is 60% funded by fares which is high but, well, not 100%. You need a mechanism for those who benefit (i.e. owners of buildings near subway stations) to fund the subways. In some countries the transport authority will essentially own large shopping mall complexes around each station and fund the subway that way; in Japan employers often pay for workers' subway tickets.

indoordinosaur 9y ago

The world's best subway by many measures is the MTR in Hong Kong. Not only is it entirely privately run but it turns a profit which they then take to build more lines. The MTR Corporation is also building London's new 73 mile Crossrail line which opens up next year after being under construction for less than 10 years. 13 Miles of Crossrail is in underground tunnels beneath the densest part of the city. In terms a New Yorker would understand, this project is like if the entire length of the 2nd avenue subway in Manhattan got built along with extensions into the Bronx and Brooklyn in 10 years and under budget. I can't see NY selling off their subway to a private entity anytime soon but what if a Mayor allowed MTR or another corporation to come in and build a competing line in some part of the city? The amazingly efficient new line might light a fire under the ass of the broader NYC subway to start operating more efficiently. Or as the new line begins to make more profit it could buy NYC lines one by one until it's running most of it. This way the debt bomb of the MTA won't destroy the city because it won't affect all major transit lines.