6 ms·

The best article I've read on the backstory: https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5046 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5046

PhasmaFelis 9y ago
I've only skimmed it so I may be missing something, but what did Dale Dougherty actually say about Naomi Wu? All I'm seeing is "Dale Doughtery tweeted a single line questioning Naomi Wu’s authenticity." Possibly unrelated, but I'm looking at Wu's Twitter (https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg), and this is something I struggle with. People should absolutely be allowed to dress how they please without fear of judgment. As the article says, "I do my best engineering when sitting half-naked at my desk." There's nothing wrong with that. But when a person or product deliberately cultivates a hypersexualized image in a field and setting that has nothing to do with sex, that's weird and off-putting to me. To swap the genders, I'd have no problem with a male engineer who does his best work half-naked at his desk at home and likes to do sexy cosplay sometimes, but it would be weird if that engineer's professional Twitter was topped with a dozen pics of him shirtless in leather pants--not "fake" or "inauthentic," just weird. I realize I know nothing about Wu except a glance at her Twitter, so I apologize if I'm missing something.
- cjcenizal 9y ago
  I didn't downvote you, but I think you may be getting downvotes because of the sentence that begins with "But." > People should absolutely be allowed to dress how they please without fear of judgment. As the article says, "I do my best engineering when sitting half-naked at my desk." There's nothing wrong with that. That's it. Full stop. There's nothing to add after that. You don't need to add "but..." and then state the exact opposite of that sentiment. You find something weird about someone? Guess what -- we're all weird. Somebody out there probably finds something about you weird. But who gives a shit! Life's a lot better once you just get over it and accept people despite their weirdness. Or even better, because of their weirdness.
  - richard_todd 9y ago
    Telling someone what they do or don’t “need to add” when they are respectfully sharing their personal experience doesn’t sound like acceptance to me. I can only imagine how much better your life can still get.
    - discoursism 9y ago
      I don't think, "questionable opinions about other people's choices which don't affect you at all," count as personal experience. Unless by "personal experience," we mean, "all possible utterances."
      - richard_todd 9y ago
        Phasma’s post acknowledges that the opinion is questionable by comparing it to an ideal (that her appearance/presentation shouldn’t matter), and calling that disparity “something I struggle with.” That was my interpretation of the post, anyway. Re-reading it now, I still see it the same way. If you do not, then clearly we will interpret the responses to the post differently as well.
  - exodust 9y ago
    I think PhasmaFelis has a valid point. I'd add that what she's doing is not the healthiest role model for young girls growing up, given the issues with sexism in tech/professional industries. Tech achievements aside, the flaunting of her breast implants is sad. In the unlikely case she has not had plastic surgery, she still seems to be asking people first to "check out my body" and then "btw, I make things too". I would have the same problem with a man who got 6-pack implants and flaunted his abs with his tech profile. It's short-term shallowness, and undoes the achievements in her field. And so I won't be following what she does, and will now leave this discussion for others.
    - billylindeman 9y ago
      Why is it sad? I think that its refreshing to see a woman be fearless in expressing her femininity / sexuality AND her interest / expertise in tech. They're not mutually exclusive. A woman saying "check out my body, I'm sexy" shouldn't disqualify the "btw I make things." The tone of your comment is along the lines of "she was asking for it" :\
- KaoruAoiShiho 9y ago
  Come on, in 2017 a tweet from a known community member is enough to destroy someone's reputation. There's no minimizing it.
- trjordan 9y ago
  I'll upvote, because we're all on a journey here. But that weird and offputting feeling a feeling that, more often than not, comes up when we're talking about women. Only women. And that's the problem. Here's a counterpoint: https://twitter.com/aphyr https://twitter.com/aphyr I can't speak for all the harassment he may or may not have endured, but it's not on the same level as Wu. He makes fun of his weird pairing of interests in his featured photo. He doesn't have the CEO of a company and de facto leader of his professional association questioning his competence on Twitter. Whatever he's dealt with, it probably hasn't been "this is so offputting that I'm going to question the fact that you even exist." Honestly, I had the same reaction as you. I don't think it's OK to question people like Naomi in this way, because I'm pretty sure I'm doing it unevenly. It's something I'm trying to figure out if I do elsewhere, and how to improve. This stuff is hard.
  - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
    > But that weird and offputting feeling a feeling that, more often than not, comes up when we're talking about women. Only women. And that's the problem. You're absolutely right, which is why I'm so conflicted about this. And in any case going from "your Twitter is kinda fetish-y" to "therefore you're a fake engineer" makes zero sense, yeah.
    - bigiain 9y ago
      Which would - if applied fairly - call into question the credentials of the 20+ thousand or so Bay Area engineers who go to Burningman every year... "I saw a photo of you with a girl wearing only body paint and a guy behind her smoking weed. You can't possibly be a credible Rust developer..."
- mikeash 9y ago
  He wrote a long blog post going into great detail about how she’s not a real person and the lady in the photos and videos is just a model, with all the work being done by a man behind the scenes. I won’t link to it, because it doesn’t need that kind of help, but I’m sure you can find it if you look.
  - skybrian 9y ago
    The article you're remembering was apparently written by an anonymous author on Reddit. (Your larger point stands, though.)
    - mikeash 9y ago
      Ah, was he just promoting it and arguing for its points? I must not have noticed when I read it. Thanks for pointing that out.
  - pitay 9y ago
    Why not link to primary evidence? How can someone make an informed decision without seeing it? It is strange logic that shining a light on something supposedly reprehensible actually helps it. This 'I won't show you the thing I am criticizing but trust my description of it' shouldn't be accepted. It seems like someone won't show what they are talking about is afraid that people may come to a different conclusion then they did. This is about a pattern I have seen, rather than any one specific thing. People criticizing something without giving a name or a link because it might give it exposure. If someone is criticizing something legitimately, then giving it exposure is precisely what they would want. The 'trust my description but I won't show it to you' should be called out when it happens.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      I don’t want to give it any PageRank juice and I don’t want to call any more attention to it than is needed to explain it. This isn’t some controversial political literature, it’s a hurtful personal attack on someone who doesn’t deserve it. I’m not asking anyone to trust my description. If anyone wants to read it for themselves, they should have little trouble finding it. I’m just not going to help them. Shouldn’t you practice what you preach here? You say you see a pattern yet you don’t provide any links. Are we just supposed to trust your description of it?
- rsynnott 9y ago
  A rather obvious male example would be the Jensen guy, whose Twitter often contains a good few photos that some might raise an eyebrow at (including leather!): https://mobile.twitter.com/aphyr https://mobile.twitter.com/aphyr Sure, it’s unusual, but not, I think, particularly suspicious. There are a lot of unusual people in tech. Edit: I notice someone already gave the same example as me; oops.
reachtarunhere 9y ago
I second that this was such a great read. I am normally pissed with diversity articles because it looks like they are complaining. I won't say complaining is wrong but it just isn't fun to read. On the other hand, bunny broke the whole issue so well. Amazing read.
fenomas 9y ago
> When a man harnesses the efforts of a team, they call him a CEO and give him a bonus. But when a woman harnesses the efforts of a team, she gets accused of being a persona and a front. I'd never really thought about this, but I have a feeling that once I start looking for it I'm going to notice it everywhere. Great article.
est 9y ago
discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15653353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15653353

PhasmaFelis 9y ago

I've only skimmed it so I may be missing something, but what did Dale Dougherty actually say about Naomi Wu? All I'm seeing is "Dale Doughtery tweeted a single line questioning Naomi Wu’s authenticity." Possibly unrelated, but I'm looking at Wu's Twitter (https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg), and this is something I struggle with. People should absolutely be allowed to dress how they please without fear of judgment. As the article says, "I do my best engineering when sitting half-naked at my desk." There's nothing wrong with that. But when a person or product deliberately cultivates a hypersexualized image in a field and setting that has nothing to do with sex, that's weird and off-putting to me. To swap the genders, I'd have no problem with a male engineer who does his best work half-naked at his desk at home and likes to do sexy cosplay sometimes, but it would be weird if that engineer's professional Twitter was topped with a dozen pics of him shirtless in leather pants--not "fake" or "inauthentic," just weird. I realize I know nothing about Wu except a glance at her Twitter, so I apologize if I'm missing something.

cjcenizal 9y ago
I didn't downvote you, but I think you may be getting downvotes because of the sentence that begins with "But." > People should absolutely be allowed to dress how they please without fear of judgment. As the article says, "I do my best engineering when sitting half-naked at my desk." There's nothing wrong with that. That's it. Full stop. There's nothing to add after that. You don't need to add "but..." and then state the exact opposite of that sentiment. You find something weird about someone? Guess what -- we're all weird. Somebody out there probably finds something about you weird. But who gives a shit! Life's a lot better once you just get over it and accept people despite their weirdness. Or even better, because of their weirdness.
- richard_todd 9y ago
  Telling someone what they do or don’t “need to add” when they are respectfully sharing their personal experience doesn’t sound like acceptance to me. I can only imagine how much better your life can still get.
  - discoursism 9y ago
    I don't think, "questionable opinions about other people's choices which don't affect you at all," count as personal experience. Unless by "personal experience," we mean, "all possible utterances."
    - richard_todd 9y ago
      Phasma’s post acknowledges that the opinion is questionable by comparing it to an ideal (that her appearance/presentation shouldn’t matter), and calling that disparity “something I struggle with.” That was my interpretation of the post, anyway. Re-reading it now, I still see it the same way. If you do not, then clearly we will interpret the responses to the post differently as well.
- exodust 9y ago
  I think PhasmaFelis has a valid point. I'd add that what she's doing is not the healthiest role model for young girls growing up, given the issues with sexism in tech/professional industries. Tech achievements aside, the flaunting of her breast implants is sad. In the unlikely case she has not had plastic surgery, she still seems to be asking people first to "check out my body" and then "btw, I make things too". I would have the same problem with a man who got 6-pack implants and flaunted his abs with his tech profile. It's short-term shallowness, and undoes the achievements in her field. And so I won't be following what she does, and will now leave this discussion for others.
  - billylindeman 9y ago
    Why is it sad? I think that its refreshing to see a woman be fearless in expressing her femininity / sexuality AND her interest / expertise in tech. They're not mutually exclusive. A woman saying "check out my body, I'm sexy" shouldn't disqualify the "btw I make things." The tone of your comment is along the lines of "she was asking for it" :\
KaoruAoiShiho 9y ago
Come on, in 2017 a tweet from a known community member is enough to destroy someone's reputation. There's no minimizing it.
trjordan 9y ago
I'll upvote, because we're all on a journey here. But that weird and offputting feeling a feeling that, more often than not, comes up when we're talking about women. Only women. And that's the problem. Here's a counterpoint: https://twitter.com/aphyr https://twitter.com/aphyr I can't speak for all the harassment he may or may not have endured, but it's not on the same level as Wu. He makes fun of his weird pairing of interests in his featured photo. He doesn't have the CEO of a company and de facto leader of his professional association questioning his competence on Twitter. Whatever he's dealt with, it probably hasn't been "this is so offputting that I'm going to question the fact that you even exist." Honestly, I had the same reaction as you. I don't think it's OK to question people like Naomi in this way, because I'm pretty sure I'm doing it unevenly. It's something I'm trying to figure out if I do elsewhere, and how to improve. This stuff is hard.
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  > But that weird and offputting feeling a feeling that, more often than not, comes up when we're talking about women. Only women. And that's the problem. You're absolutely right, which is why I'm so conflicted about this. And in any case going from "your Twitter is kinda fetish-y" to "therefore you're a fake engineer" makes zero sense, yeah.
  - bigiain 9y ago
    Which would - if applied fairly - call into question the credentials of the 20+ thousand or so Bay Area engineers who go to Burningman every year... "I saw a photo of you with a girl wearing only body paint and a guy behind her smoking weed. You can't possibly be a credible Rust developer..."
mikeash 9y ago
He wrote a long blog post going into great detail about how she’s not a real person and the lady in the photos and videos is just a model, with all the work being done by a man behind the scenes. I won’t link to it, because it doesn’t need that kind of help, but I’m sure you can find it if you look.
- skybrian 9y ago
  The article you're remembering was apparently written by an anonymous author on Reddit. (Your larger point stands, though.)
  - mikeash 9y ago
    Ah, was he just promoting it and arguing for its points? I must not have noticed when I read it. Thanks for pointing that out.
- pitay 9y ago
  Why not link to primary evidence? How can someone make an informed decision without seeing it? It is strange logic that shining a light on something supposedly reprehensible actually helps it. This 'I won't show you the thing I am criticizing but trust my description of it' shouldn't be accepted. It seems like someone won't show what they are talking about is afraid that people may come to a different conclusion then they did. This is about a pattern I have seen, rather than any one specific thing. People criticizing something without giving a name or a link because it might give it exposure. If someone is criticizing something legitimately, then giving it exposure is precisely what they would want. The 'trust my description but I won't show it to you' should be called out when it happens.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    I don’t want to give it any PageRank juice and I don’t want to call any more attention to it than is needed to explain it. This isn’t some controversial political literature, it’s a hurtful personal attack on someone who doesn’t deserve it. I’m not asking anyone to trust my description. If anyone wants to read it for themselves, they should have little trouble finding it. I’m just not going to help them. Shouldn’t you practice what you preach here? You say you see a pattern yet you don’t provide any links. Are we just supposed to trust your description of it?
rsynnott 9y ago
A rather obvious male example would be the Jensen guy, whose Twitter often contains a good few photos that some might raise an eyebrow at (including leather!): https://mobile.twitter.com/aphyr https://mobile.twitter.com/aphyr Sure, it’s unusual, but not, I think, particularly suspicious. There are a lot of unusual people in tech. Edit: I notice someone already gave the same example as me; oops.

reachtarunhere 9y ago

I second that this was such a great read. I am normally pissed with diversity articles because it looks like they are complaining. I won't say complaining is wrong but it just isn't fun to read. On the other hand, bunny broke the whole issue so well. Amazing read.

fenomas 9y ago

> When a man harnesses the efforts of a team, they call him a CEO and give him a bonus. But when a woman harnesses the efforts of a team, she gets accused of being a persona and a front. I'd never really thought about this, but I have a feeling that once I start looking for it I'm going to notice it everywhere. Great article.

est 9y ago

discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15653353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15653353