4 ms·

It seems pointless to me when people become "vegetarian" to opt out of the factory farming/animal cruelty machine...only to eat massive amounts of eggs and dair

It seems pointless to me when people become "vegetarian" to opt out of the factory farming/animal cruelty machine...only to eat massive amounts of eggs and dairy.

anarazel 9y ago
It's a question of degree. One hundred gram of meat vs 200g of yoghurt implies a significantly higher energy use and on average is more crucial pretty calorie.
- cies 9y ago
  He's talking about the "factory farming/animal cruelty machine", thus ethics. You are responding about "energy use", this environmental impact. Two separate reasons to go vegan. (besides the issues of pollution, scarcity and health-impact)
  - anarazel 9y ago
    I also referenced the cruelty? The point being that to get the same amount of energy out of milk/egg based products you'll need fewer animals than for meat based production (where animals have to grow for multiple months to years just to be slaughtered). Which means fewer animals will suffer to feed one person. It's obviously possible to reduce further.
    - cies 9y ago
      Hard to compare the cruelty involved in breeding-for-slaughter, breeding-for-milking-then-slaughter or breeding-for-egg-laying-then-slaughter. Or to compare suffering in a chicken with the suffering of a cow. How many chicks convert to one cow? Bottom line is vegan, period. And even that line is blurry if you zoom in enough :)
      - optimusclimb 9y ago
        Just in case you check your replies now and then - yes, you get what I was saying. One can opt out of meat and meat products for reasons of health (which are complicated and debatable, but a personal choice), reducing environmental impact, and not taking part in the way we currently handle animals for food. The latter one is complicated, as it is technically possible to opt out of supporting the chicken/cow "matrix" if you really truly only ever eat meat/eggs/dairy from animals that are raised, used, and finally killed on (likely) local farms that generally treat their animals with "dignity" for whatever that's worth until they kill them. I personally don't think that real free range cattle and chickens that are eventually slaughtered have bad lives for what they are - but being able to only eat such animals is definitely a choice only available to the upper-middle class and up, given the current system. But if you're a vegetarian and you routinely buy 48 egg cartons for $6 at your local safeway and eat tons of cheese? You just have a restrictive weird diet.
empthought 9y ago
Seems reasonable to consider pigs and cows as different from chickens and fish in this case.
- optimusclimb 9y ago
  Why? Pigs are generally considered intelligent animals. Cows...not so much, but by that logic, where are we drawing the line?
toasterlovin 9y ago
Well, in one case the animal dies for the calories that you consume and in the other they continue to live. Now, the animals may have a terrible quality of life, but that is a different issue (which also applies to animals who are killed for meat).

It seems pointless to me when people become "vegetarian" to opt out of the factory farming/animal cruelty machine...only to eat massive amounts of eggs and dairy.

anarazel 9y ago

It's a question of degree. One hundred gram of meat vs 200g of yoghurt implies a significantly higher energy use and on average is more crucial pretty calorie.

cies 9y ago
He's talking about the "factory farming/animal cruelty machine", thus ethics. You are responding about "energy use", this environmental impact. Two separate reasons to go vegan. (besides the issues of pollution, scarcity and health-impact)
- anarazel 9y ago
  I also referenced the cruelty? The point being that to get the same amount of energy out of milk/egg based products you'll need fewer animals than for meat based production (where animals have to grow for multiple months to years just to be slaughtered). Which means fewer animals will suffer to feed one person. It's obviously possible to reduce further.
  - cies 9y ago
    Hard to compare the cruelty involved in breeding-for-slaughter, breeding-for-milking-then-slaughter or breeding-for-egg-laying-then-slaughter. Or to compare suffering in a chicken with the suffering of a cow. How many chicks convert to one cow? Bottom line is vegan, period. And even that line is blurry if you zoom in enough :)
    - optimusclimb 9y ago
      Just in case you check your replies now and then - yes, you get what I was saying. One can opt out of meat and meat products for reasons of health (which are complicated and debatable, but a personal choice), reducing environmental impact, and not taking part in the way we currently handle animals for food. The latter one is complicated, as it is technically possible to opt out of supporting the chicken/cow "matrix" if you really truly only ever eat meat/eggs/dairy from animals that are raised, used, and finally killed on (likely) local farms that generally treat their animals with "dignity" for whatever that's worth until they kill them. I personally don't think that real free range cattle and chickens that are eventually slaughtered have bad lives for what they are - but being able to only eat such animals is definitely a choice only available to the upper-middle class and up, given the current system. But if you're a vegetarian and you routinely buy 48 egg cartons for $6 at your local safeway and eat tons of cheese? You just have a restrictive weird diet.

empthought 9y ago

Seems reasonable to consider pigs and cows as different from chickens and fish in this case.

optimusclimb 9y ago
Why? Pigs are generally considered intelligent animals. Cows...not so much, but by that logic, where are we drawing the line?

toasterlovin 9y ago

Well, in one case the animal dies for the calories that you consume and in the other they continue to live. Now, the animals may have a terrible quality of life, but that is a different issue (which also applies to animals who are killed for meat).