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have you read Byzantine history? They were sworn enemies of Islam throughout this entire period not discussing the nuances of philosophy. I can keep citing art

by iorrus 9y ago

have you read Byzantine history? They were sworn enemies of Islam throughout this entire period not discussing the nuances of philosophy. I can keep citing articles claiming Aristotle was not forgotten but it seems pointless at this stage. Many of the early church fathers mention Aristotle. Aristotle was considered a minor philosopher throughout this time but his work was still available. Another article for you: https://books.google.ie/books?id=Hkf6n9oKFmYC&pg=PA159&lpg=PA159&dq=organon+byzantium&source=bl&ots=Cka5QjLhg7&sig=exm_U33pIz_XTEvTxwR869kxKzw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiw1PTitsvXAhVFBcAKHX4RA5UQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=organon%20byzantium&f=false https://books.google.ie/books?id=Hkf6n9oKFmYC&pg=PA159&lpg=P...

boomboomsubban 9y ago
They weren't "sworn enemies," they were rival empires sharing a border. This led to frequent clashes, but there was also regular trade and diplomatic emissaries. That enables books to travel and ideas to spread. All of your articles say the same thing, quoting again, "It deserves to be noted that before the 12th century, the whole Byzantine output of Aristotelian commentaries dealt exclusively with the works on logic." That's basically my point, his philosophical work was ignored. All of your sources have supported this, you even seem to be searching specifically for sources saying this now judging by that link. What you haven't shown is any serious thought put into his philosophical work during that period, or given any other cause for his sudden resurgence besides Islamic influence. You're trying to disprove my argument that he was ignored until the Islamic works by saying "see they said Aristotle in 750, he wasn't forgotten."
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- iorrus 9y ago
  Looking into this further it appears you are correct in that Al-Farabi for instance actually studied in Byzantium for 8 years according to the preface in this book: https://www.amazon.com/Political-Writings-Regime-Summary-Editions/dp/0801453801/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1511194253&sr=8-6&keywords=Al-farabi#reader_0801453801 https://www.amazon.com/Political-Writings-Regime-Summary-Edi...
  - mkempe 9y ago
    All biographies indicate that Al-Farabi studied in Baghdad under a Christian teacher, not in Constantinople.
  - boomboomsubban 9y ago
    His actual biography is unclear, much of it coming from sources hundreds of years later. What's clear is that he wrote commentaries on Aristotle's works beyond the Organon, something that is missing from Byzantine history. As the other poster notes, he does have strong connections to Nestorian Christians of the time. They're the group that translated Aristotle from Syriac to Arabic that later led to the Latin translations bring made. And they had little to do with the Romans/Byzantines, having been condemned as heretical by the Roman church in the fifth century.
    - iorrus 9y ago
      It says in the preface he was there for 8 years. I'll take the word of the man who wrote a recent book on his philosophy over some guy on HN. He probably brushed up on Aristotle at the time. His early teachers were Nestorian Christians.
      - boomboomsubban 9y ago
        The preface is written by a translator, not a historian, and his source is another translator. Translating his works does not make him an authority on his biography. The contemporary sources are near nonexistent for his biography, and the major ones written later were contradictory. http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/farabi-i http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/farabi-i Either way, you agree his time in Baghdad with the Nestorians came earlier, and they were far more involved in writing about Aristotle than any Byzantine known today. Maybe he did seek Greek versions of his work in Constantinople, those works were not influential in the Byzantine Empire. I don't see how any of this is overly relevant to the discussion.
        iorrus 9y ago

by iorrus 9y ago

boomboomsubban 9y ago

They weren't "sworn enemies," they were rival empires sharing a border. This led to frequent clashes, but there was also regular trade and diplomatic emissaries. That enables books to travel and ideas to spread. All of your articles say the same thing, quoting again, "It deserves to be noted that before the 12th century, the whole Byzantine output of Aristotelian commentaries dealt exclusively with the works on logic." That's basically my point, his philosophical work was ignored. All of your sources have supported this, you even seem to be searching specifically for sources saying this now judging by that link. What you haven't shown is any serious thought put into his philosophical work during that period, or given any other cause for his sudden resurgence besides Islamic influence. You're trying to disprove my argument that he was ignored until the Islamic works by saying "see they said Aristotle in 750, he wasn't forgotten."

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
iorrus 9y ago
Looking into this further it appears you are correct in that Al-Farabi for instance actually studied in Byzantium for 8 years according to the preface in this book: https://www.amazon.com/Political-Writings-Regime-Summary-Editions/dp/0801453801/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1511194253&sr=8-6&keywords=Al-farabi#reader_0801453801 https://www.amazon.com/Political-Writings-Regime-Summary-Edi...
- mkempe 9y ago
  All biographies indicate that Al-Farabi studied in Baghdad under a Christian teacher, not in Constantinople.
- boomboomsubban 9y ago
  His actual biography is unclear, much of it coming from sources hundreds of years later. What's clear is that he wrote commentaries on Aristotle's works beyond the Organon, something that is missing from Byzantine history. As the other poster notes, he does have strong connections to Nestorian Christians of the time. They're the group that translated Aristotle from Syriac to Arabic that later led to the Latin translations bring made. And they had little to do with the Romans/Byzantines, having been condemned as heretical by the Roman church in the fifth century.
  - iorrus 9y ago
    It says in the preface he was there for 8 years. I'll take the word of the man who wrote a recent book on his philosophy over some guy on HN. He probably brushed up on Aristotle at the time. His early teachers were Nestorian Christians.
    - boomboomsubban 9y ago
      The preface is written by a translator, not a historian, and his source is another translator. Translating his works does not make him an authority on his biography. The contemporary sources are near nonexistent for his biography, and the major ones written later were contradictory. http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/farabi-i http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/farabi-i Either way, you agree his time in Baghdad with the Nestorians came earlier, and they were far more involved in writing about Aristotle than any Byzantine known today. Maybe he did seek Greek versions of his work in Constantinople, those works were not influential in the Byzantine Empire. I don't see how any of this is overly relevant to the discussion.
      - iorrus 9y ago