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This is huge. While it starts with just powering things like boot security and Hey Siri, I guarantee you this is the first step toward Apple getting rid of Inte

by 013a 9y ago

This is huge. While it starts with just powering things like boot security and Hey Siri, I guarantee you this is the first step toward Apple getting rid of Intel on the Mac. How much longer before they release MB/MBPs with the same chip, doing the same thing? How much longer after that before we see SDKs released for writings apps that run on Mac, but are completely executed within the ARM processor? I think this is coming far sooner than many people think.

userbinator 9y ago
I guarantee you this is the first step toward Apple getting rid of Intel on the Mac. ...and making Macs even more closed and proprietary, moving away from the (semi-open, but also quickly closing[1]) PC again. This is huge, and scary. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15730113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15730113
- cududa 9y ago
  Or you could just buy a Non Apple product if you don't like it.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  It is the return to the roots, just like Apple used to be before OS X happened. They only became more open out of necessity.
  - Someone 9y ago
    Apple’s roots were extremely open. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_I#History https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_I#History: ”After building it for himself and showing it at the Club, he and Steve Jobs gave out schematics (technical designs) for the computer to interested club members and even helped some of them build and test out copies” Also: the Apple 2 shipped with full schematics and an assembly listing of its ROMs. The ‘phone book’ edition of Inside Macintosh didn’t document all hardware, but I wouldn’t call it ‘closed’. It explains how OS calls are implemented, details on the floppy disk interface, etc.
    - gggvvh 9y ago
      That’s Jobs-Woz Apple, not Jobs Apple. The Apple you’re thinking of started disappearing when the Macintosh came out, and was no more when Jobs returned as CEO. Not saying it’s a bad thing, mind.
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      That was the very early days, hardly noticed in Europe. What I remember are the LC and Quadra with NuBus, AppleTalk, QuickDraw, QuickDraw 3D, Sound Manager... Hardly open in what regards using standards common to other platforms. Having proper technical manuals was common to all companies during those days.
      - Someone 9y ago
        I don’t see how that makes them different from other companies in that period. NuBus was an open standard, the ISA bus of PCs wasn’t. Neither were the Atari or Amiga buses. As to AppleTalk: they could have chosen something else for networking, but I don’t see what they should have used instead of AppleTalk for networking. Ethernet existed, but used thick coax cable (twisted pair is from 1984, standardized in 1986. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_over_twisted_pair); https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_over_twisted_pair); token ring is of about the same time, but also proprietary, and wasn’t ready in time for the launch of the Macintosh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleTalk#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleTalk#History). TCP/IP existed, but it wasn’t clear that it would win the race, and it was overkill for the intended uses of AppleTalk. The various operating system APIs aren’t less or more proprietary than what OS/2, Windows, Atari’s TOS, AmigaOS, and the various Unixes offered at the time (OpenGL wasn’t available yet; X Windows would have crawled on Mac hardware of the time even more than QuickDraw did, and wasn’t stabilized in 1984) I also don’t see that they should have done things different after they made the choices they made for the 1984 Mac. They could have opened the hardware somewhere in the 1980s, but it isn’t certain that that would have been beneficial for them. I think the only real difference is the openness of the PC hardware architecture, and that was accidental/unintended.
- internet2000 9y ago
  Apple never bothered with EFI secure boot, and even go out of their way to do BIOS emulation for other OSs. Apple knows that on desktop computers, the genie is out of the bottle. They wouldn't block booting other OSs, just like they they still give options to disable Gatekeeper and SIP despite the FUD.
  - kunimu 9y ago
    Isn't the only reason why they wouldn't block booting "other OSs" was because you can use their Boot Camp utility to dual boot Windows? Then someone figured out that the machine didn't care what you ran once you selected the Windows option, so they started doing things like running Ubuntu on there. Most operating systems know the genies is out of the bottle more than Apple apparently, as they let you not only customise your partition schema at install time, but you can use standard utilities to change it whenever you want. I may be misrecollecting, but Apple doesn't let you resize the Windows partition unless you do it manually from Windows/Linux, or you use the Boot Camp assistant again. The utility is deliberately built so that you can't resize the partition without erasing it. Things may have changed, though.
zitterbewegung 9y ago
Here is what I think will occur : New Macbook Pro (not a refresh) will probably have this chip in but it will be probably only be used initially for iOS emulator for developers. The next release of macOS will probably have iOS apps that you can run on a mac. Then they will replace the Macbook Air line in to a Macbook Arm as a new product launch at the beginning of 2019.
- danpalmer 9y ago
  > it will be probably only be used initially for iOS emulator for developers This is quite a large technical undertaking, with a very small pay-off given the tiny percentage of users who develop on their Mac for iOS devices. I can't see this being something that happens until x86 CPUs have been removed entirely.
  - mtgx 9y ago
    At the rate Apple is increasing its iPhone SKUs every year, it won't be long until all iOS app companies will need to purchase like 20 different-generation iPhones. I think they'll need the emulator eventually.
    - dogma1138 9y ago
      Not sure why is this being downvoted. Apple is currently selling 8 models across 4 lines (6s, 7, 8, X and SE), and the iPhone 6 line is still being sold by carriers. This is pretty much the first time when 8 primary models are available from Apple + at least 2 models are still being sold. If the model trend continues to grow as it has been since the iPhone 6, there might be actually a need for device model emulation for development...
    - speeq 9y ago
      Have you seen how many Samsung Galaxy variants exist in comparison? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy#Phones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy#Phones That's just one manufacturer.
    - deleted 9y ago
gggvvh 9y ago
I automatically dismiss comments that start with “This is huge”. I’m not the only one. Could you please edit that filler out of your comment, thanks.

by 013a 9y ago

userbinator 9y ago

I guarantee you this is the first step toward Apple getting rid of Intel on the Mac. ...and making Macs even more closed and proprietary, moving away from the (semi-open, but also quickly closing[1]) PC again. This is huge, and scary. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15730113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15730113

cududa 9y ago
Or you could just buy a Non Apple product if you don't like it.
pjmlp 9y ago
It is the return to the roots, just like Apple used to be before OS X happened. They only became more open out of necessity.
- Someone 9y ago
  Apple’s roots were extremely open. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_I#History https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_I#History: ”After building it for himself and showing it at the Club, he and Steve Jobs gave out schematics (technical designs) for the computer to interested club members and even helped some of them build and test out copies” Also: the Apple 2 shipped with full schematics and an assembly listing of its ROMs. The ‘phone book’ edition of Inside Macintosh didn’t document all hardware, but I wouldn’t call it ‘closed’. It explains how OS calls are implemented, details on the floppy disk interface, etc.
  - gggvvh 9y ago
    That’s Jobs-Woz Apple, not Jobs Apple. The Apple you’re thinking of started disappearing when the Macintosh came out, and was no more when Jobs returned as CEO. Not saying it’s a bad thing, mind.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    That was the very early days, hardly noticed in Europe. What I remember are the LC and Quadra with NuBus, AppleTalk, QuickDraw, QuickDraw 3D, Sound Manager... Hardly open in what regards using standards common to other platforms. Having proper technical manuals was common to all companies during those days.
    - Someone 9y ago
      I don’t see how that makes them different from other companies in that period. NuBus was an open standard, the ISA bus of PCs wasn’t. Neither were the Atari or Amiga buses. As to AppleTalk: they could have chosen something else for networking, but I don’t see what they should have used instead of AppleTalk for networking. Ethernet existed, but used thick coax cable (twisted pair is from 1984, standardized in 1986. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_over_twisted_pair); https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_over_twisted_pair); token ring is of about the same time, but also proprietary, and wasn’t ready in time for the launch of the Macintosh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleTalk#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleTalk#History). TCP/IP existed, but it wasn’t clear that it would win the race, and it was overkill for the intended uses of AppleTalk. The various operating system APIs aren’t less or more proprietary than what OS/2, Windows, Atari’s TOS, AmigaOS, and the various Unixes offered at the time (OpenGL wasn’t available yet; X Windows would have crawled on Mac hardware of the time even more than QuickDraw did, and wasn’t stabilized in 1984) I also don’t see that they should have done things different after they made the choices they made for the 1984 Mac. They could have opened the hardware somewhere in the 1980s, but it isn’t certain that that would have been beneficial for them. I think the only real difference is the openness of the PC hardware architecture, and that was accidental/unintended.
internet2000 9y ago
Apple never bothered with EFI secure boot, and even go out of their way to do BIOS emulation for other OSs. Apple knows that on desktop computers, the genie is out of the bottle. They wouldn't block booting other OSs, just like they they still give options to disable Gatekeeper and SIP despite the FUD.
- kunimu 9y ago
  Isn't the only reason why they wouldn't block booting "other OSs" was because you can use their Boot Camp utility to dual boot Windows? Then someone figured out that the machine didn't care what you ran once you selected the Windows option, so they started doing things like running Ubuntu on there. Most operating systems know the genies is out of the bottle more than Apple apparently, as they let you not only customise your partition schema at install time, but you can use standard utilities to change it whenever you want. I may be misrecollecting, but Apple doesn't let you resize the Windows partition unless you do it manually from Windows/Linux, or you use the Boot Camp assistant again. The utility is deliberately built so that you can't resize the partition without erasing it. Things may have changed, though.

zitterbewegung 9y ago

Here is what I think will occur : New Macbook Pro (not a refresh) will probably have this chip in but it will be probably only be used initially for iOS emulator for developers. The next release of macOS will probably have iOS apps that you can run on a mac. Then they will replace the Macbook Air line in to a Macbook Arm as a new product launch at the beginning of 2019.

danpalmer 9y ago
> it will be probably only be used initially for iOS emulator for developers This is quite a large technical undertaking, with a very small pay-off given the tiny percentage of users who develop on their Mac for iOS devices. I can't see this being something that happens until x86 CPUs have been removed entirely.
- mtgx 9y ago
  At the rate Apple is increasing its iPhone SKUs every year, it won't be long until all iOS app companies will need to purchase like 20 different-generation iPhones. I think they'll need the emulator eventually.
  - dogma1138 9y ago
    Not sure why is this being downvoted. Apple is currently selling 8 models across 4 lines (6s, 7, 8, X and SE), and the iPhone 6 line is still being sold by carriers. This is pretty much the first time when 8 primary models are available from Apple + at least 2 models are still being sold. If the model trend continues to grow as it has been since the iPhone 6, there might be actually a need for device model emulation for development...
  - speeq 9y ago
    Have you seen how many Samsung Galaxy variants exist in comparison? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy#Phones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy#Phones That's just one manufacturer.
  - deleted 9y ago

gggvvh 9y ago

I automatically dismiss comments that start with “This is huge”. I’m not the only one. Could you please edit that filler out of your comment, thanks.