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Incumbent business interests colluding with government under the guise of “public safety” to enact regulation and licensing just to build artificial moats and p

Incumbent business interests colluding with government under the guise of “public safety” to enact regulation and licensing just to build artificial moats and protect themselves from competition is such fiendish invisible form of corruption. Planet money did a very good and very despressing episode on one woman’s quest to open a hair braiding salon. https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/06/22/155596305/episode-381-why-its-illegal-to-braid-hair-without-a-license https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/06/22/155596305/epis...

Consultant32452 9y ago
It's really shocking how much of "the public" has bought into this "public safety" nonsense too. I recently had a lengthy debate with someone who was arguing that I, as a homeowner, should not be able to hire someone to do such basic plumbing tasks as snake my sewer line unless that person had passed a plumbing certification with the state. This over-regulation is disastrous to the poor.
- tmm 9y ago
  Where I live, homeowners aren’t allowed to do most plumbing or electrical work on their own homes. Anything beyond replacing an outlet or a faucet and you’re in master tradesman territory. I’ve no issue with getting the work inspected, but there is no reason that I can’t be allowed to do my own work. Of course, I do it anyway (and so do many others) but technicallly it’s illegal. Related to this, it amuses (and saddens) me whenever I hear of a shortage of skilled trades workers. When it takes 7 years of apprenticeship to become a master electrician, plumber or gas fitter is it really any wonder that kids coming out of high school would choose something else?
  - dsharlet 9y ago
    On one hand, I agree with this sentiment, you should be free to do your own work on your own property. On the other hand... my landlord in college. He did a lot of work on his house himself, and did it really badly. One example: he installed a cheap indoor light fixture outside where rain would get into it. It also happened to be on the same circuit as our refrigerator. So, sometimes when it rained, the circuit with our refrigerator on it would trip its circuit breaker. You might be perfectly competent to do your own work on your house. The problem is, everyone that works on their own house thinks they are competent, and many of them are not. I feel like this is one of those issues that is doomed to oscillate. A few generations will exist with these rules complaining of not being allowed to work on their own houses, and maybe these rules will change. Some injuries/deaths/just plain tiring of janky poorly done house modifications by prior owners will see a return of these rules. Repeat...
    - throwanem 9y ago
      Sounds like the kind of thing that'd last until you tried to sell the house, and a prospective buyer's home inspector caught it. Then you'd end up paying for proper work to be done, one way or another.
      - falcolas 9y ago
        Assuming the inspector can catch it. They're detail orientated, but they can't see inside walls or through roofs.
        lisper 9y ago
        The seller has a legal duty to disclose known defects and work done without proper permits or not according to code. And they don't disclose, and the defect is subsequently discovered buy the buyer, the seller can be sued.
        grigjd3 9y ago
        But I had no idea this was an issue, really.
    - thomastjeffery 9y ago
      I think there is a clear middle-ground here: You should be allowed to work, and when your shoddy work is to the detriment of someone else, they should be able to react accordingly.
- thaumaturgy 9y ago
  It's not over-regulation to require plumbers to be certified by a competent agency, and those regulations are usually in place as a result of uncertified people taking advantage of the poor. They are an effect, not a cause. For example, terra cotta sewer lines still exist in a lot of places. They are old, have been invaded by roots (and thus are going to need disproportionately more attention than modern lines), and fragile. An inexperienced or careless plumber with typical snaking equipment can easily damage these sewer pipes, costing homeowners tens of thousands of dollars. State certification helps to ensure that the plumbers that show up know how to deal with these systems and can lose their right to work in the industry if they're careless. More generally, I see this sentiment a lot, especially on tech forums, where regulation is somehow a thing that happens all by itself and it's the enemy of the poor, while we're surrounded by mountains of evidence exactly to the contrary.
  - cgmg 9y ago
    > we're surrounded by mountains of evidence exactly to the contrary Where can we find such evidence, as opposed to anecdotes?
    - cannonedhamster 9y ago
      * Flint, Michigan * The Gulf Coast * Anywhere in coal country * Wall Street * TARP If you really think regulations are made to protect someone other than the poor or middle classes I've got a bridge in Alaska to sell you. The whole point of regulations is that the collective power of the masses protects itself against the wealth of the elite and business interests who don't generally have to live with the results of their actions. Are there stupid regulations? Of course, lots of them. Are there some that just don't plain work? Of course, lots of them. That's why you don't make regulations based on feelings and instead look at what the evidence says.
      - wutbrodo 9y ago
        > If you really think regulations are made to protect someone other than the poor or middle classes I've got a bridge in Alaska to sell you If you really think that the collective motivations and incentives behind every regulation can be so easily generalized, then you're no different from free-market zealots unable to appreciate that markets are suboptimal for certain tasks. Regulations can be abused just like any other part of government, and just like any other part of government, this potential for abuse isn't a blanket indictment of the overall concept.
- drodgers 9y ago
  I'm not a fan of over-regulation, but there are definitely some public good issues with plumbing in particular which justify some scrutiny by the state. For example, a bad/ignorant plumber could build a system where small quantities of used water can be reintroduced to the mains supply (the public health consequences of which could obviously be horrible). We could help the poor more by providing free training/licensing, or just by having a more generous welfare system so that they could buy it themselves. Sacrificing useful regulations is actually a very costly way to help the poor.
- CryptoPunk 9y ago
  This meme is also behind the incredibly common position that the "sharing economy" should be banned. Many people sincerely believe that if you make jobs that pay below a minimum wage illegal, wages will increase. They're not just limiting other people's contracting rights: they're doing so based on their assumption that a theory that is highly controversial in economics is correct.
narrator 9y ago
This is why robotics might not produce a job boom. The argument will be that there are bad things you can do with a robot, so only very very certified companies should be allowed to produce and write software for them. This is already starting to happen with drones.
- leggomylibro 9y ago
  Which seems like madness, when you can throw your own robot/drone kit together from a mix of Digikey, Adafruit, and Amazon. But I guess you can make your own plumbing kit - or hell, a flippin' gun - with a trip to home depot, so...

Consultant32452 9y ago

It's really shocking how much of "the public" has bought into this "public safety" nonsense too. I recently had a lengthy debate with someone who was arguing that I, as a homeowner, should not be able to hire someone to do such basic plumbing tasks as snake my sewer line unless that person had passed a plumbing certification with the state. This over-regulation is disastrous to the poor.

tmm 9y ago
Where I live, homeowners aren’t allowed to do most plumbing or electrical work on their own homes. Anything beyond replacing an outlet or a faucet and you’re in master tradesman territory. I’ve no issue with getting the work inspected, but there is no reason that I can’t be allowed to do my own work. Of course, I do it anyway (and so do many others) but technicallly it’s illegal. Related to this, it amuses (and saddens) me whenever I hear of a shortage of skilled trades workers. When it takes 7 years of apprenticeship to become a master electrician, plumber or gas fitter is it really any wonder that kids coming out of high school would choose something else?
- dsharlet 9y ago
  On one hand, I agree with this sentiment, you should be free to do your own work on your own property. On the other hand... my landlord in college. He did a lot of work on his house himself, and did it really badly. One example: he installed a cheap indoor light fixture outside where rain would get into it. It also happened to be on the same circuit as our refrigerator. So, sometimes when it rained, the circuit with our refrigerator on it would trip its circuit breaker. You might be perfectly competent to do your own work on your house. The problem is, everyone that works on their own house thinks they are competent, and many of them are not. I feel like this is one of those issues that is doomed to oscillate. A few generations will exist with these rules complaining of not being allowed to work on their own houses, and maybe these rules will change. Some injuries/deaths/just plain tiring of janky poorly done house modifications by prior owners will see a return of these rules. Repeat...
  - throwanem 9y ago
    Sounds like the kind of thing that'd last until you tried to sell the house, and a prospective buyer's home inspector caught it. Then you'd end up paying for proper work to be done, one way or another.
    - falcolas 9y ago
      Assuming the inspector can catch it. They're detail orientated, but they can't see inside walls or through roofs.
      - lisper 9y ago
        The seller has a legal duty to disclose known defects and work done without proper permits or not according to code. And they don't disclose, and the defect is subsequently discovered buy the buyer, the seller can be sued.
        grigjd3 9y ago
        But I had no idea this was an issue, really.
  - thomastjeffery 9y ago
    I think there is a clear middle-ground here: You should be allowed to work, and when your shoddy work is to the detriment of someone else, they should be able to react accordingly.
thaumaturgy 9y ago
It's not over-regulation to require plumbers to be certified by a competent agency, and those regulations are usually in place as a result of uncertified people taking advantage of the poor. They are an effect, not a cause. For example, terra cotta sewer lines still exist in a lot of places. They are old, have been invaded by roots (and thus are going to need disproportionately more attention than modern lines), and fragile. An inexperienced or careless plumber with typical snaking equipment can easily damage these sewer pipes, costing homeowners tens of thousands of dollars. State certification helps to ensure that the plumbers that show up know how to deal with these systems and can lose their right to work in the industry if they're careless. More generally, I see this sentiment a lot, especially on tech forums, where regulation is somehow a thing that happens all by itself and it's the enemy of the poor, while we're surrounded by mountains of evidence exactly to the contrary.
- cgmg 9y ago
  > we're surrounded by mountains of evidence exactly to the contrary Where can we find such evidence, as opposed to anecdotes?
  - cannonedhamster 9y ago
    * Flint, Michigan * The Gulf Coast * Anywhere in coal country * Wall Street * TARP If you really think regulations are made to protect someone other than the poor or middle classes I've got a bridge in Alaska to sell you. The whole point of regulations is that the collective power of the masses protects itself against the wealth of the elite and business interests who don't generally have to live with the results of their actions. Are there stupid regulations? Of course, lots of them. Are there some that just don't plain work? Of course, lots of them. That's why you don't make regulations based on feelings and instead look at what the evidence says.
    - wutbrodo 9y ago
      > If you really think regulations are made to protect someone other than the poor or middle classes I've got a bridge in Alaska to sell you If you really think that the collective motivations and incentives behind every regulation can be so easily generalized, then you're no different from free-market zealots unable to appreciate that markets are suboptimal for certain tasks. Regulations can be abused just like any other part of government, and just like any other part of government, this potential for abuse isn't a blanket indictment of the overall concept.
drodgers 9y ago
I'm not a fan of over-regulation, but there are definitely some public good issues with plumbing in particular which justify some scrutiny by the state. For example, a bad/ignorant plumber could build a system where small quantities of used water can be reintroduced to the mains supply (the public health consequences of which could obviously be horrible). We could help the poor more by providing free training/licensing, or just by having a more generous welfare system so that they could buy it themselves. Sacrificing useful regulations is actually a very costly way to help the poor.
CryptoPunk 9y ago
This meme is also behind the incredibly common position that the "sharing economy" should be banned. Many people sincerely believe that if you make jobs that pay below a minimum wage illegal, wages will increase. They're not just limiting other people's contracting rights: they're doing so based on their assumption that a theory that is highly controversial in economics is correct.

narrator 9y ago

This is why robotics might not produce a job boom. The argument will be that there are bad things you can do with a robot, so only very very certified companies should be allowed to produce and write software for them. This is already starting to happen with drones.

leggomylibro 9y ago
Which seems like madness, when you can throw your own robot/drone kit together from a mix of Digikey, Adafruit, and Amazon. But I guess you can make your own plumbing kit - or hell, a flippin' gun - with a trip to home depot, so...