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Argentina says signals detected, likely from missing submarine

130 points by daegloe 9y ago

richmarr 9y ago
> "Argentine authorities are scrambling to find a three-decade-old submarine..." 30 years doesn't seem that old for a submarine. A good proportion of the UK fleet were launched in the 80s. What age does the US start decommissioning subs?
- chrisseaton 9y ago
  > A good proportion of the UK fleet were launched in the 80s. Which UK submarines from the 80s do you think are still operating? I think there’s just one, HMS Trenchant, from 1989.
  - tolien 9y ago
    Vanguard and Victorious were laid down in '86 and '87 and launched in '92 and '93 respectively [1], the first two of the Upholder-class subs were launched in '86 and '89 [2] and are currently with the Canadians in "active" service. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard-class_submarine#Boats_of_the_class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard-class_submarine#Boats... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upholder/Victoria-class_submarine#Submarines_in_class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upholder/Victoria-class_submar...
    - chrisseaton 9y ago
      As you say, first two weren’t launched in the 1980s and the second two aren’t part of the UK fleet, so that’s still just one. Can’t really call that a majority even if you were contradicting me.
      - tolien 9y ago
        Wow, aggressively pedantic much? San Juan was laid down in early 1982 and launched in 1983 then underwent a mid-life upgrade in 2008-2013, Vanguard was laid down in 1986 and (being significantly more complicated) launched in 1992. The point stands (as a counter to the idea that Argentina's fleet is somehow ancient) that they're of a pretty similar age and era, even if it's not true that the majority of the RN's fleet is. The other two subs were UK built and are still serving, even if not with the UK. As another data point, HMS Illustrious launched in the '70s, participated in the Falklands War in the '80s and was only decommissioned 3 years ago (admittedly as the oldest ship in the fleet and decidedly showing its age). Edit: If you widen the criteria to the entire fleet, there's also 14 Archer-class patrol ships that were commissioned in the 80s (plus one that's with the Royal Oman Police) [1] and eight of the Hunt-class minesweepers [2], of which one was commissioned in the 70s. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer-class_patrol_vessel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer-class_patrol_vessel 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunt-class_mine_countermeasures_vessel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunt-class_mine_countermeasure...
        chrisseaton 9y ago
        > If you widen the criteria to the entire fleet Might as well desperately throw HMS Victory into that mix of random things and really get the average age up! But none of this is relevant to the launch dates of submarines in the UK fleet, which is what was claimed. I get the underlying point about the age of naval platforms, yeah. I was just correcting the incorrect and misleading claim about the age of the UK's submarines, because a clearly incorrect claim doesn't add anything useful to the discussion.
        FuckOffNeemo 9y ago
        Not related to this article but, I had the pleasure of visiting the muesum at Hartlepool that was responsible for repairing the the HMS Warrior. Unfortunately for I, I had not yet been brought into the world but the museum there at Hartlepool is exceptional. The expertise of the men involved in the restoration of the Warrior (and the HMS Trincomalee which is still birthed at Hartlepool currently) was fascinating to me growing up. There's nothing of interest in Hartlepool with the exception of the towns ship building legacy. The restoration of those two ships are one of the few bright points in an otherwise awful 4 decades of austerity for my old home town. "[HMS Trincomalee]... is the oldest warship afloat anywhere in Europe, berthed at Jackson Dock, within The National Museum of the Royal Navy Hartlepool." I seem to recall the intent was to originally have the HMS Warrior made sea worthy but during the repair work it was deemed too risky or expensive? This was done shortly before it was sent back to Portsmouth back in 87. I believe the intent is to sail the HMS Trincomalee down to Portsmouth in the future too. That'd be a sight to behold. http://hms-trincomalee.co.uk/ http://hms-trincomalee.co.uk/
- jabretti 9y ago
  The Ohio-class submarines of the US Navy date back to 1981, and their replacement isn't due until 2029 (and probably won't happen until later than that). The Taiwanese are still operating a submarine which was launched in 1944. So yeah, a 30-year-old submarine is merely middle-aged. On the other hand, Argentinian maintenance standards are not exactly the envy of the world (cf http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/23/argentine-destroyer-that-led-war-against-britain-sinks-symbol-decay-for-once.html http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/23/argentine-destroyer-... )
  - AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
    In fact, the Ohio itself, launched in 1979 is still in active service.
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    Argentina is an amazing place who level of screwed-upness is tragic.
    - conanbatt 9y ago
      Argentina has 2 distinct effects. The first is that after the dictatorship in the 70's, the military has been systematically defunded. Any politician that needs a buck, and they all do, will always put the military last. Its a front-pager for the government to buy a new military plane: it costs votes and money. And second, we have a level of systematic corruption that has eroded many institutions, including the military. Noticeable so, the state of military aircraft is in shambles and many army people died because the funds for maintenance where stolen. A famous documentary by a former pilot details these issues.
  - jsmthrowaway 9y ago
    This is similar to people being surprised by the typical age of civilian general aviation aircraft. Dozens of types from the 40s, 50s, and 60s are still flying great, which is what meticulous maintenance and logging gets you. Visit Alaska and you’ll spot loads of Cubs from the early 1940s. It’s not uncommon to train in an aircraft like a Cessna 150 or 152, and a lot of those predate the Moon landing. You can buy a nice aircraft from that era, one which will last you a long time with (expensive) care, for about the same cost as a Prius. One can get a lot of mileage out of something designed to be airworthy and reliable and maintained by a careful lineage of owners.
- tryingagainbro 9y ago
  Maintenance is the likely missing link. Get a brand one and don't do maintenance for a while and you'll get the same result. A lot of countries have these subs and airplanes but not enough money for training, maintenance and so on.
  - soneil 9y ago
    This is a huge difference. Argentine submarines reportedly average 10 hours per year submerged. Hours. The UK’s Vanguard-class boats remain submerged for entire 10-week patrols. At one time, Argentina had the most extensive navy in South America. That time was not in the last two decades. Much of their current capability could be best described as left-over.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > What age does the US start decommissioning subs? The US has no diesel-electric subs, the much more expensive (and not just in power plant) nuclear boats the US fields have a longer design life, IIRC. The oldest few still in service are some Los Angeles class boats that entered service from 1981 and will be decommissioned in the next couple of years, but most that entered service around that time were retired earlier (between 20-25 years.) Which is to say, 30 years is, by any measure, old for a sub.
joering2 9y ago
They all timing ticking bomb, since most (all by now) are nuclear reactor propelled. As we all know, if something can break, it will break eventually. Its only a matter of time when one of these creatures sink to the bottom and pressure will take care of the rest, causing world panic due to nuclear material getting released into the ocean.
- jackpirate 9y ago
  Nine nuclear submarines have already sank: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sunken_nuclear_submarines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sunken_nuclear_submari... There hasn't been any world panic. There's lots of reasons to dislike the war-machine. (I myself am a former nuclear naval officer turned conscientious objector/pacifist.) But FUD does not help the case against militarism.
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    I myself am a former nuclear naval officer turned conscientious objector/pacifist. This is tangential, but can I ask about some of your experiences or reasons for that? It sounds interesting. Only curious. Feel free to shoot me an email if you'd like.
    - jackpirate 9y ago
      On my blog, I have a page about the whole process here: https://izbicki.me/blog/my-co-discharge.html https://izbicki.me/blog/my-co-discharge.html If you want something more condensed, here's a news article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/nyregion/23objector.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/nyregion/23objector.html?p...
      - sillysaurus3 9y ago
        Your AK-47 to serving spoon project is interesting too: https://izbicki.me/blog/turning-an-ak-47-into-a-serving-ladle.html https://izbicki.me/blog/turning-an-ak-47-into-a-serving-ladl...
artur_makly 9y ago
im sure they will surface when Argentina plays its first match in the upcoming World Cup
ChuckMcM 9y ago
I took a brief excursion on a private submarine once and the list of things that could go wrong that they asked to you explicitly release them from liability for was frankly rather frightening. It really put a damper on my desire for a 'casual' submarine from US Subs. Given the description that the seas are quite rough I hope it is a simple matter of them losing a communications mast or something along those lines.
- ocschwar 9y ago
  Submarines are just about the worst when it comes to the duration from the second someone goofs up and the second where everyone's doomed. And also the worst when it comes to the duration from the instant everyone's doomed to the instant everyone's dead. TSorry, but that's a "no" from me, dawg.
  - ves 9y ago
    I assume you mean "really short" and "really long," respectively.
  - pjmorris 9y ago
    An ex-submariner had a blog named after a saying from the community: "The stupid shall be punished."
    - QAPereo 9y ago
      Submariners are a glimpse of what humans will become in space. Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime: the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity. Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough For Love Alternative: https://m.warhistoryonline.com/featured/u-1206-sub-sunk-dump-on-toilet.html https://m.warhistoryonline.com/featured/u-1206-sub-sunk-dump...
      - pjmorris 9y ago
ajross 9y ago
Sort of a weird article, talking about the disappearance and the hunt and the worry without actually talking about what the boat is or what its crew does: this is a diesel-electric attack submarine, designed deliberately to evade detection and sink other ships with torpedoes. They routinely operate without contact for days at a time, and have limited means of signaling a mayday situation. Pretty much everyone recognizes that when these things run into trouble, they may very well simply disappear. So, it's a tragedy. But, not really an unforseen one.
- marianov 9y ago
  ARA (Armada Argentina/Argentina Navy) San Juan. 1983 Diesel Electric, recently serviced. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_San_Juan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_San_Juan
  - italophil 9y ago
    I read about that service somewhere, they basically cut the boat in half to replace the engines and then welded it back together.
    - BuildTheRobots 9y ago
      >According to Minister of Defense Agustin Rossi, the MLU cost some 100 million Argentine Pesos (12.4 million dollars) and comprised more than 500,000 work hours in which the boat was cut in half and had its four MTU engines and batteries replaced. The MLU was under way at CINAR since August 2007. He blamed the delay on the lack of funds and qualified labor. > Rossi called the re-delivery an important milestone for Argentina, as the state had lost its ability to repair submarines following the previous Domecq Garcia shipyards being disbanded.[1] Distinct lack of details; though the article says crew of 37 when every current article about it missing states 44. edit: The lack of maintenance facilities is worrying, though it sounds like the overhaul has created a grannies broom; there's not much of the original sub left. [1] http://en.mercopress.com/2014/06/19/argentine-navy-receives-refurbished-tr1700-class-submarine-ara-san-juan http://en.mercopress.com/2014/06/19/argentine-navy-receives-... Linked from wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_San_Juan#cite_note-5 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_San_Juan#cite_note-5
anigbrowl 9y ago
What a terrible headline, and the article isn't any better. "Argentine military submarine with crew of 44 lost at sea" is perfectly sufficient. Writing standards have really taken a dive since news went digital, which is the opposite of the world I'd hoped for when I was evangelizing the internet back in the 90s :-( I'm not optimistic for the poor sailors. If a modern submarine is genuinely missing it's usually because it was on some sort of covert mission when it got into difficulties.
- merpnderp 9y ago
  Think of it more like what we used to see was only the best writers, now we see far more writes, and hopefully their average quality has gone up - which is almost a certainty given they used to not write at all.
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
    I don't care about the average quality of writers, I care about the average quality of what I read, which has sunk. I could just stop reading news about current affairs but I like knowing what's going on in the world.
- whoopdedo 9y ago
  Even worse is the computer-generated "related" links that are inserted inline with the article. We're talking about peoples' lives and you're trying to bait me with a headline about cocaine and hookers? This is why human editors are necessary for journalism.
  - eighthnate 9y ago
    >This is why human editors are necessary for journalism. What difference would a human editor make? There is an exorbitant amount of news people on social media trying to convince everyone that they are needed.
    - whoopdedo 9y ago
jlgaddis 9y ago
Ars Technica ran an article [0] yesterday that had more info and details on the sub, as well as some info about NASA's involvement (P-3 aircraft participating in the search). [0]: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/11/nasa-icebridge-flying-lab-aids-in-search-for-missing-argentine-navy-sub/?comments=1 https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/11/nasa-...
Theodores 9y ago
These submarines are weapons of war, for defence and offence. It is interesting how rival countries are willing to help out in these situations. If this submarine had got lost when the Falklands war was a hot war, would the British lend them a helicopter or two to help them look? Particularly if it was a day or two after the Argentine Air Force had taken out a ship or two of the Task Force. 'Here you go guys, if you need help with salvage...' would not have happened then or in the post-war aftermath. Instead the Royal Navy would have denied the Argentine armed forces access to the area and the depth charges would have been deployed, the submarine gone for good like the General Belgrano. The victory would be selling newspapers. Only a few left wing anti-war moaners would be grumbling. But today obviously there is 'peace' and as much help as much as possible is coming from the British establishment with no hesitation. If the North Koreans lost a submarine would other countries such as the UK/USA offer them help to find it, particularly if it could one day point missiles at the USA? Maybe there should be an on-going 'lost-submarine test' where world tensions and hostilities are gauged by how many countries participate in military search and rescue operations.
- dazc 9y ago
  'If this submarine had got lost when the Falklands war was a hot war, would the British lend them a helicopter or two to help them look?....' We live in different times; Falkland Islands are properly defended now and UK has its own nuclear deterrent. Argentina is no longer a threat so I would expect, as a UK citizen, that usual humanitarian protocols are put into play.
  - SiempreViernes 9y ago
    Quite irrelevant as the question explicitly stated the time as "[during] the Falklands war", and the answer is of course no, Tatcher certainly wouldn't have helped the Argentinians during the war.
    - Simon_says 9y ago
      I think the answer is that the UK would have been happy to locate the sub ... and sink it.
robtaylor 9y ago
Several 'failed satellite calls' have been detected (how?) attributed to missing military sub. https://twitter.com/BreakingDotUK/status/932041323816906753 https://twitter.com/BreakingDotUK/status/932041323816906753 quoting Reuters. Fingers crossed!
- lb1lf 9y ago
  As for the failed satellite calls, my guess would be that communication was initiated, but that all of the handshakes required to actually place a call were not completed successfully. Typical cause: you are equipped with a gain antenna which requires stabilisation to point at the relevant patch of sky - and the stabilisation isn't working. You can aim for the general area and sometimes, you get close enough to start the connection process. (Or any other number of reasons - the above I have experienced myself. Luckily, we had the option to switch to a lower-gain antenna and connect anyway (at a higher rate.)
jordansmithnz 9y ago
Seems like there’s new information since this article: “Argentina says signals detected, likely from missing submarine” - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-argentina-submarine/argentina-says-signals-detected-likely-from-missing-submarine-idUSKBN1DI0M8 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-argentina-submarine/argen...
- dang 9y ago
  Thanks! Url changed from https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/11/18/a-submarine-has-vanished-launching-a-frantic-search-for-44-people-on-board/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/11/18....
dghughes 9y ago
>But a storm pitching powerful winds and waves more than 6 meters (20 feet) Isn't that normal? The Atlantic off south east Canada 5m (15 feet) waves are a normal everyday thing. The coast off Argentina seems like it would be similar in climate.
jonah 9y ago
Tyler Rogoway's article mentions the US Navy is on standby with their Submarine Rescue Diving Recompression System[1] in case their help is requested. But hopefully it's on the surface but disabled and will be located soon. [0] http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/16195/frantic-search-underway-for-missing-argentine-submarine http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/16195/frantic-search-un... [1] http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=4100&ct=4&tid=400 http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=4100&ct=4&...
nodesocket 9y ago
> U.S. company specialized in satellite communications Nice. Hoping Argentina and US can bring these sailors back safely.
Someone 9y ago
”It was not immediately clear what type of calls the vessel may have tried to make but submarines that are stricken underwater can float a location beacon known as an EPIRB to the surface that can then emit emergency signals via satellite.” Makes me only very slightly more optimistic w.r.t. the chances of finding the crew alive. Being military, their normal objectives would include “don’t let anybody see you”, so they wouldn’t use such a device unless they were in truly dire trouble.

130 points by daegloe 9y ago

> "Argentine authorities are scrambling to find a three-decade-old submarine..." 30 years doesn't seem that old for a submarine. A good proportion of the UK fleet were launched in the 80s. What age does the US start decommissioning subs?

chrisseaton 9y ago
> A good proportion of the UK fleet were launched in the 80s. Which UK submarines from the 80s do you think are still operating? I think there’s just one, HMS Trenchant, from 1989.
- tolien 9y ago
  Vanguard and Victorious were laid down in '86 and '87 and launched in '92 and '93 respectively [1], the first two of the Upholder-class subs were launched in '86 and '89 [2] and are currently with the Canadians in "active" service. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard-class_submarine#Boats_of_the_class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard-class_submarine#Boats... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upholder/Victoria-class_submarine#Submarines_in_class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upholder/Victoria-class_submar...
  - chrisseaton 9y ago
    As you say, first two weren’t launched in the 1980s and the second two aren’t part of the UK fleet, so that’s still just one. Can’t really call that a majority even if you were contradicting me.
    - tolien 9y ago
      Wow, aggressively pedantic much? San Juan was laid down in early 1982 and launched in 1983 then underwent a mid-life upgrade in 2008-2013, Vanguard was laid down in 1986 and (being significantly more complicated) launched in 1992. The point stands (as a counter to the idea that Argentina's fleet is somehow ancient) that they're of a pretty similar age and era, even if it's not true that the majority of the RN's fleet is. The other two subs were UK built and are still serving, even if not with the UK. As another data point, HMS Illustrious launched in the '70s, participated in the Falklands War in the '80s and was only decommissioned 3 years ago (admittedly as the oldest ship in the fleet and decidedly showing its age). Edit: If you widen the criteria to the entire fleet, there's also 14 Archer-class patrol ships that were commissioned in the 80s (plus one that's with the Royal Oman Police) [1] and eight of the Hunt-class minesweepers [2], of which one was commissioned in the 70s. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer-class_patrol_vessel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer-class_patrol_vessel 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunt-class_mine_countermeasures_vessel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunt-class_mine_countermeasure...
      - chrisseaton 9y ago
        > If you widen the criteria to the entire fleet Might as well desperately throw HMS Victory into that mix of random things and really get the average age up! But none of this is relevant to the launch dates of submarines in the UK fleet, which is what was claimed. I get the underlying point about the age of naval platforms, yeah. I was just correcting the incorrect and misleading claim about the age of the UK's submarines, because a clearly incorrect claim doesn't add anything useful to the discussion.
        FuckOffNeemo 9y ago
        Not related to this article but, I had the pleasure of visiting the muesum at Hartlepool that was responsible for repairing the the HMS Warrior. Unfortunately for I, I had not yet been brought into the world but the museum there at Hartlepool is exceptional. The expertise of the men involved in the restoration of the Warrior (and the HMS Trincomalee which is still birthed at Hartlepool currently) was fascinating to me growing up. There's nothing of interest in Hartlepool with the exception of the towns ship building legacy. The restoration of those two ships are one of the few bright points in an otherwise awful 4 decades of austerity for my old home town. "[HMS Trincomalee]... is the oldest warship afloat anywhere in Europe, berthed at Jackson Dock, within The National Museum of the Royal Navy Hartlepool." I seem to recall the intent was to originally have the HMS Warrior made sea worthy but during the repair work it was deemed too risky or expensive? This was done shortly before it was sent back to Portsmouth back in 87. I believe the intent is to sail the HMS Trincomalee down to Portsmouth in the future too. That'd be a sight to behold. http://hms-trincomalee.co.uk/ http://hms-trincomalee.co.uk/
jabretti 9y ago
The Ohio-class submarines of the US Navy date back to 1981, and their replacement isn't due until 2029 (and probably won't happen until later than that). The Taiwanese are still operating a submarine which was launched in 1944. So yeah, a 30-year-old submarine is merely middle-aged. On the other hand, Argentinian maintenance standards are not exactly the envy of the world (cf http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/23/argentine-destroyer-that-led-war-against-britain-sinks-symbol-decay-for-once.html http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/23/argentine-destroyer-... )
- AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
  In fact, the Ohio itself, launched in 1979 is still in active service.
- Spooky23 9y ago
  Argentina is an amazing place who level of screwed-upness is tragic.
  - conanbatt 9y ago
    Argentina has 2 distinct effects. The first is that after the dictatorship in the 70's, the military has been systematically defunded. Any politician that needs a buck, and they all do, will always put the military last. Its a front-pager for the government to buy a new military plane: it costs votes and money. And second, we have a level of systematic corruption that has eroded many institutions, including the military. Noticeable so, the state of military aircraft is in shambles and many army people died because the funds for maintenance where stolen. A famous documentary by a former pilot details these issues.
- jsmthrowaway 9y ago
  This is similar to people being surprised by the typical age of civilian general aviation aircraft. Dozens of types from the 40s, 50s, and 60s are still flying great, which is what meticulous maintenance and logging gets you. Visit Alaska and you’ll spot loads of Cubs from the early 1940s. It’s not uncommon to train in an aircraft like a Cessna 150 or 152, and a lot of those predate the Moon landing. You can buy a nice aircraft from that era, one which will last you a long time with (expensive) care, for about the same cost as a Prius. One can get a lot of mileage out of something designed to be airworthy and reliable and maintained by a careful lineage of owners.
tryingagainbro 9y ago
Maintenance is the likely missing link. Get a brand one and don't do maintenance for a while and you'll get the same result. A lot of countries have these subs and airplanes but not enough money for training, maintenance and so on.
- soneil 9y ago
  This is a huge difference. Argentine submarines reportedly average 10 hours per year submerged. Hours. The UK’s Vanguard-class boats remain submerged for entire 10-week patrols. At one time, Argentina had the most extensive navy in South America. That time was not in the last two decades. Much of their current capability could be best described as left-over.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> What age does the US start decommissioning subs? The US has no diesel-electric subs, the much more expensive (and not just in power plant) nuclear boats the US fields have a longer design life, IIRC. The oldest few still in service are some Los Angeles class boats that entered service from 1981 and will be decommissioned in the next couple of years, but most that entered service around that time were retired earlier (between 20-25 years.) Which is to say, 30 years is, by any measure, old for a sub.

joering2 9y ago

They all timing ticking bomb, since most (all by now) are nuclear reactor propelled. As we all know, if something can break, it will break eventually. Its only a matter of time when one of these creatures sink to the bottom and pressure will take care of the rest, causing world panic due to nuclear material getting released into the ocean.

jackpirate 9y ago
Nine nuclear submarines have already sank: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sunken_nuclear_submarines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sunken_nuclear_submari... There hasn't been any world panic. There's lots of reasons to dislike the war-machine. (I myself am a former nuclear naval officer turned conscientious objector/pacifist.) But FUD does not help the case against militarism.
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  I myself am a former nuclear naval officer turned conscientious objector/pacifist. This is tangential, but can I ask about some of your experiences or reasons for that? It sounds interesting. Only curious. Feel free to shoot me an email if you'd like.
  - jackpirate 9y ago
    On my blog, I have a page about the whole process here: https://izbicki.me/blog/my-co-discharge.html https://izbicki.me/blog/my-co-discharge.html If you want something more condensed, here's a news article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/nyregion/23objector.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/nyregion/23objector.html?p...
    - sillysaurus3 9y ago
      Your AK-47 to serving spoon project is interesting too: https://izbicki.me/blog/turning-an-ak-47-into-a-serving-ladle.html https://izbicki.me/blog/turning-an-ak-47-into-a-serving-ladl...

artur_makly 9y ago

im sure they will surface when Argentina plays its first match in the upcoming World Cup

ChuckMcM 9y ago

I took a brief excursion on a private submarine once and the list of things that could go wrong that they asked to you explicitly release them from liability for was frankly rather frightening. It really put a damper on my desire for a 'casual' submarine from US Subs. Given the description that the seas are quite rough I hope it is a simple matter of them losing a communications mast or something along those lines.

ocschwar 9y ago
Submarines are just about the worst when it comes to the duration from the second someone goofs up and the second where everyone's doomed. And also the worst when it comes to the duration from the instant everyone's doomed to the instant everyone's dead. TSorry, but that's a "no" from me, dawg.
- ves 9y ago
  I assume you mean "really short" and "really long," respectively.
- pjmorris 9y ago
  An ex-submariner had a blog named after a saying from the community: "The stupid shall be punished."
  - QAPereo 9y ago
    Submariners are a glimpse of what humans will become in space. Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime: the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity. Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough For Love Alternative: https://m.warhistoryonline.com/featured/u-1206-sub-sunk-dump-on-toilet.html https://m.warhistoryonline.com/featured/u-1206-sub-sunk-dump...
    - pjmorris 9y ago

ajross 9y ago

Sort of a weird article, talking about the disappearance and the hunt and the worry without actually talking about what the boat is or what its crew does: this is a diesel-electric attack submarine, designed deliberately to evade detection and sink other ships with torpedoes. They routinely operate without contact for days at a time, and have limited means of signaling a mayday situation. Pretty much everyone recognizes that when these things run into trouble, they may very well simply disappear. So, it's a tragedy. But, not really an unforseen one.

marianov 9y ago
ARA (Armada Argentina/Argentina Navy) San Juan. 1983 Diesel Electric, recently serviced. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_San_Juan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_San_Juan
- italophil 9y ago
  I read about that service somewhere, they basically cut the boat in half to replace the engines and then welded it back together.
  - BuildTheRobots 9y ago
    >According to Minister of Defense Agustin Rossi, the MLU cost some 100 million Argentine Pesos (12.4 million dollars) and comprised more than 500,000 work hours in which the boat was cut in half and had its four MTU engines and batteries replaced. The MLU was under way at CINAR since August 2007. He blamed the delay on the lack of funds and qualified labor. > Rossi called the re-delivery an important milestone for Argentina, as the state had lost its ability to repair submarines following the previous Domecq Garcia shipyards being disbanded.[1] Distinct lack of details; though the article says crew of 37 when every current article about it missing states 44. edit: The lack of maintenance facilities is worrying, though it sounds like the overhaul has created a grannies broom; there's not much of the original sub left. [1] http://en.mercopress.com/2014/06/19/argentine-navy-receives-refurbished-tr1700-class-submarine-ara-san-juan http://en.mercopress.com/2014/06/19/argentine-navy-receives-... Linked from wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_San_Juan#cite_note-5 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_San_Juan#cite_note-5

anigbrowl 9y ago

What a terrible headline, and the article isn't any better. "Argentine military submarine with crew of 44 lost at sea" is perfectly sufficient. Writing standards have really taken a dive since news went digital, which is the opposite of the world I'd hoped for when I was evangelizing the internet back in the 90s :-( I'm not optimistic for the poor sailors. If a modern submarine is genuinely missing it's usually because it was on some sort of covert mission when it got into difficulties.

merpnderp 9y ago
Think of it more like what we used to see was only the best writers, now we see far more writes, and hopefully their average quality has gone up - which is almost a certainty given they used to not write at all.
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  I don't care about the average quality of writers, I care about the average quality of what I read, which has sunk. I could just stop reading news about current affairs but I like knowing what's going on in the world.
whoopdedo 9y ago
Even worse is the computer-generated "related" links that are inserted inline with the article. We're talking about peoples' lives and you're trying to bait me with a headline about cocaine and hookers? This is why human editors are necessary for journalism.
- eighthnate 9y ago
  >This is why human editors are necessary for journalism. What difference would a human editor make? There is an exorbitant amount of news people on social media trying to convince everyone that they are needed.
  - whoopdedo 9y ago

jlgaddis 9y ago

Ars Technica ran an article [0] yesterday that had more info and details on the sub, as well as some info about NASA's involvement (P-3 aircraft participating in the search). [0]: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/11/nasa-icebridge-flying-lab-aids-in-search-for-missing-argentine-navy-sub/?comments=1 https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/11/nasa-...

Theodores 9y ago

These submarines are weapons of war, for defence and offence. It is interesting how rival countries are willing to help out in these situations. If this submarine had got lost when the Falklands war was a hot war, would the British lend them a helicopter or two to help them look? Particularly if it was a day or two after the Argentine Air Force had taken out a ship or two of the Task Force. 'Here you go guys, if you need help with salvage...' would not have happened then or in the post-war aftermath. Instead the Royal Navy would have denied the Argentine armed forces access to the area and the depth charges would have been deployed, the submarine gone for good like the General Belgrano. The victory would be selling newspapers. Only a few left wing anti-war moaners would be grumbling. But today obviously there is 'peace' and as much help as much as possible is coming from the British establishment with no hesitation. If the North Koreans lost a submarine would other countries such as the UK/USA offer them help to find it, particularly if it could one day point missiles at the USA? Maybe there should be an on-going 'lost-submarine test' where world tensions and hostilities are gauged by how many countries participate in military search and rescue operations.

dazc 9y ago
'If this submarine had got lost when the Falklands war was a hot war, would the British lend them a helicopter or two to help them look?....' We live in different times; Falkland Islands are properly defended now and UK has its own nuclear deterrent. Argentina is no longer a threat so I would expect, as a UK citizen, that usual humanitarian protocols are put into play.
- SiempreViernes 9y ago
  Quite irrelevant as the question explicitly stated the time as "[during] the Falklands war", and the answer is of course no, Tatcher certainly wouldn't have helped the Argentinians during the war.
  - Simon_says 9y ago
    I think the answer is that the UK would have been happy to locate the sub ... and sink it.

robtaylor 9y ago

Several 'failed satellite calls' have been detected (how?) attributed to missing military sub. https://twitter.com/BreakingDotUK/status/932041323816906753 https://twitter.com/BreakingDotUK/status/932041323816906753 quoting Reuters. Fingers crossed!

lb1lf 9y ago
As for the failed satellite calls, my guess would be that communication was initiated, but that all of the handshakes required to actually place a call were not completed successfully. Typical cause: you are equipped with a gain antenna which requires stabilisation to point at the relevant patch of sky - and the stabilisation isn't working. You can aim for the general area and sometimes, you get close enough to start the connection process. (Or any other number of reasons - the above I have experienced myself. Luckily, we had the option to switch to a lower-gain antenna and connect anyway (at a higher rate.)

jordansmithnz 9y ago

Seems like there’s new information since this article: “Argentina says signals detected, likely from missing submarine” - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-argentina-submarine/argentina-says-signals-detected-likely-from-missing-submarine-idUSKBN1DI0M8 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-argentina-submarine/argen...

dang 9y ago
Thanks! Url changed from https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/11/18/a-submarine-has-vanished-launching-a-frantic-search-for-44-people-on-board/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/11/18....

dghughes 9y ago

>But a storm pitching powerful winds and waves more than 6 meters (20 feet) Isn't that normal? The Atlantic off south east Canada 5m (15 feet) waves are a normal everyday thing. The coast off Argentina seems like it would be similar in climate.

jonah 9y ago

Tyler Rogoway's article mentions the US Navy is on standby with their Submarine Rescue Diving Recompression System[1] in case their help is requested. But hopefully it's on the surface but disabled and will be located soon. [0] http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/16195/frantic-search-underway-for-missing-argentine-submarine http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/16195/frantic-search-un... [1] http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=4100&ct=4&tid=400 http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=4100&ct=4&...

nodesocket 9y ago

> U.S. company specialized in satellite communications Nice. Hoping Argentina and US can bring these sailors back safely.

Someone 9y ago

”It was not immediately clear what type of calls the vessel may have tried to make but submarines that are stricken underwater can float a location beacon known as an EPIRB to the surface that can then emit emergency signals via satellite.” Makes me only very slightly more optimistic w.r.t. the chances of finding the crew alive. Being military, their normal objectives would include “don’t let anybody see you”, so they wouldn’t use such a device unless they were in truly dire trouble.