5 ms·

This is not unlike Microsoft's aggressive push to automatically install Windows 10 a few years ago.

by nayuki 9y ago

frik 9y ago
I don't like the pattern Apple is using there. But comparing it with Microsoft?!? Microsoft was a lot more aggressive and shady, and used a bunch of evil UI patterns, like installing it by clicking "Cancel" button. Or displaying a second start button that opens the shady installer instead of the start menu. macOS auto downloading is not right, but it is whole level below that. If you look at OS charts like on Steam, 64% still on Win7, many reverted back, because Win10 (29%) is shit and full of dark patterns, and Win7 is the new XP. In the last few months the install base of Win7 increased whereas Win10 decreased (I was one of them). http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/?platform=pc http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/?platform=pc and https://www.neowin.net/news/windows-7-user-base-on-steam-continues-to-rise-as-windows-10-falls-to-5001 https://www.neowin.net/news/windows-7-user-base-on-steam-con...
- chris_wot 9y ago
  No, it’s the same really. Automatically downloading I’ve 5GB of data in the background without permission is some incredibly shady shit. There are people in Australia with data plans that this would literally still cost hundreds of dollars.
  - alsetmusic 9y ago
    Downloading in the background is not the same as installing without warning. Yes, Apple should make the install notification more clear to prevent users from clicking blindly. That’s not the same as surreptitiously tricking users (it is possible to decline the update on macOS). These are separate griefs.
  - bromuro 9y ago
    I live in Spain and I have a data-limited connection as well. I use Little Snitch to stop unwanted background downloads.
  - SyneRyder 9y ago
    I often use my laptop with my mobile hotspot when I'm outside the house, and 5GB of data would cost me $50. Which is more than Apple used to charge to buy a MacOS X install DVD. Most months I only need $5 - $10 of mobile data. (Side note: I had no idea you can still buy Snow Leopard DVDs from Apple! Costs $30.99 including shipping:) https://www.apple.com/au/shop/product/MC573Z/A/mac-os-x-106-snow-leopard https://www.apple.com/au/shop/product/MC573Z/A/mac-os-x-106-...
    - wyclif 9y ago
      Gosh, I miss Snow Leopard now. The best OS Apple ever did, IMO. Super stable and totally about "getting shit done." In the years I was running it, I don't ever remember my system crashing.
  - galad87 9y ago
    There is an option to disable the automatic downloads in System Preferences -> App Store.
  - GeekyBear 9y ago
    The difference is that the App Store Control Panel on the Mac allows the user to make the decision that updates should or should not be downloaded in advance of the decision to install the update. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207251 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207251 With the Windows 10 update, Microsoft was actively using dark patterns to circumvent their user's wishes. https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/67367/upgradegate-microsofts-upgrade-deceptions-undermining-windows-10 https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/67367/upgradegat...
laurent123456 9y ago
This has became the new normal it seems. Just like it's acceptable to reboot a computer without a user's permission, losing all their work (or to start it in the middle of the night and not switch it back off). This is purely something that these companies do for their own good without any regard for the user. They probably think "What are you going to do about it? Install Ubuntu?"
- collectively 9y ago
  Do for their own good? I see this as for the collective good, as most of the people hurt by unpatched software are NOT microsoft but people, small businesses, and the victims of the resulting botnets. Obviously if you know what this is you can turn it off.
  - marksomnian 9y ago
    The issue with having an off switch is that non-tech-savvy people will blindly follow some instructions to disable it and will get caught by a major security vuln. Case in point: when Chrome throws a TLS error, you could type "danger" to bypass it, but they had to change it because businesses started teaching users to bypass errors blindly. Not exactly apples to apples, but similar enough in my mind. If users blindly disable updates, they won't be updated when there's a major security patch.
    - Trav5 9y ago
      A good reminder that if a software company is given enough trust to auto update, keeping that trust us important. Seems the big boys have been breaching that trust a lot lately.
    - collectively 9y ago
      This is true. But i’m ok with stupidity hurting individuals—at least in terms of compromise—i’m less ok with default settings being potentially insecure one day.
  - userbinator 9y ago
blntechie 9y ago
“For the greater good” seem to be the answer for these aggressive moves from tech companies.
proactivesvcs 9y ago
I beg to differ. Microsoft used underhand tactics to force Windows 10 on users, where at one point closing the upgrade prompt window by clicking the X at the top-right was taken as permission to install. The difference between Windows 8.1 and 10 was marked, particularly because when Windows 10 was first released it was extremely buggy, and the in-place installation broke swathes of drivers, programs and lost settings. (At least, this was my experience as the person called to fix such problems).
- MikusR 9y ago
  I understand that you have never used Windows, but the x at the top right means close that particular window and not yes or no.
  - GeekyBear 9y ago
    >Last week, Microsoft silently changed Get Windows 10 yet again. And this time, it has gone beyond the social engineering scheme that has been fooling people into inadvertently upgrading to Windows 10 for months. This time, it actually changed the behavior of the window that appears so that if you click the “Close” window box, you are actually agreeing to the upgrade. Without you knowing what just happened. https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/67367/upgradegate-microsofts-upgrade-deceptions-undermining-windows-10 https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/67367/upgradegat...
  - sctb 9y ago
    Would you please not be so rude with other users? We're trying to have a discussion. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

This is not unlike Microsoft's aggressive push to automatically install Windows 10 a few years ago.

by nayuki 9y ago

This is not unlike Microsoft's aggressive push to automatically install Windows 10 a few years ago.

frik 9y ago

I don't like the pattern Apple is using there. But comparing it with Microsoft?!? Microsoft was a lot more aggressive and shady, and used a bunch of evil UI patterns, like installing it by clicking "Cancel" button. Or displaying a second start button that opens the shady installer instead of the start menu. macOS auto downloading is not right, but it is whole level below that. If you look at OS charts like on Steam, 64% still on Win7, many reverted back, because Win10 (29%) is shit and full of dark patterns, and Win7 is the new XP. In the last few months the install base of Win7 increased whereas Win10 decreased (I was one of them). http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/?platform=pc http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/?platform=pc and https://www.neowin.net/news/windows-7-user-base-on-steam-continues-to-rise-as-windows-10-falls-to-5001 https://www.neowin.net/news/windows-7-user-base-on-steam-con...

chris_wot 9y ago
No, it’s the same really. Automatically downloading I’ve 5GB of data in the background without permission is some incredibly shady shit. There are people in Australia with data plans that this would literally still cost hundreds of dollars.
- alsetmusic 9y ago
  Downloading in the background is not the same as installing without warning. Yes, Apple should make the install notification more clear to prevent users from clicking blindly. That’s not the same as surreptitiously tricking users (it is possible to decline the update on macOS). These are separate griefs.
- bromuro 9y ago
  I live in Spain and I have a data-limited connection as well. I use Little Snitch to stop unwanted background downloads.
- SyneRyder 9y ago
  I often use my laptop with my mobile hotspot when I'm outside the house, and 5GB of data would cost me $50. Which is more than Apple used to charge to buy a MacOS X install DVD. Most months I only need $5 - $10 of mobile data. (Side note: I had no idea you can still buy Snow Leopard DVDs from Apple! Costs $30.99 including shipping:) https://www.apple.com/au/shop/product/MC573Z/A/mac-os-x-106-snow-leopard https://www.apple.com/au/shop/product/MC573Z/A/mac-os-x-106-...
  - wyclif 9y ago
    Gosh, I miss Snow Leopard now. The best OS Apple ever did, IMO. Super stable and totally about "getting shit done." In the years I was running it, I don't ever remember my system crashing.
- galad87 9y ago
  There is an option to disable the automatic downloads in System Preferences -> App Store.
- GeekyBear 9y ago
  The difference is that the App Store Control Panel on the Mac allows the user to make the decision that updates should or should not be downloaded in advance of the decision to install the update. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207251 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207251 With the Windows 10 update, Microsoft was actively using dark patterns to circumvent their user's wishes. https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/67367/upgradegate-microsofts-upgrade-deceptions-undermining-windows-10 https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/67367/upgradegat...

laurent123456 9y ago

This has became the new normal it seems. Just like it's acceptable to reboot a computer without a user's permission, losing all their work (or to start it in the middle of the night and not switch it back off). This is purely something that these companies do for their own good without any regard for the user. They probably think "What are you going to do about it? Install Ubuntu?"

collectively 9y ago
Do for their own good? I see this as for the collective good, as most of the people hurt by unpatched software are NOT microsoft but people, small businesses, and the victims of the resulting botnets. Obviously if you know what this is you can turn it off.
- marksomnian 9y ago
  The issue with having an off switch is that non-tech-savvy people will blindly follow some instructions to disable it and will get caught by a major security vuln. Case in point: when Chrome throws a TLS error, you could type "danger" to bypass it, but they had to change it because businesses started teaching users to bypass errors blindly. Not exactly apples to apples, but similar enough in my mind. If users blindly disable updates, they won't be updated when there's a major security patch.
  - Trav5 9y ago
    A good reminder that if a software company is given enough trust to auto update, keeping that trust us important. Seems the big boys have been breaching that trust a lot lately.
  - collectively 9y ago
    This is true. But i’m ok with stupidity hurting individuals—at least in terms of compromise—i’m less ok with default settings being potentially insecure one day.
- userbinator 9y ago

blntechie 9y ago

“For the greater good” seem to be the answer for these aggressive moves from tech companies.

proactivesvcs 9y ago

I beg to differ. Microsoft used underhand tactics to force Windows 10 on users, where at one point closing the upgrade prompt window by clicking the X at the top-right was taken as permission to install. The difference between Windows 8.1 and 10 was marked, particularly because when Windows 10 was first released it was extremely buggy, and the in-place installation broke swathes of drivers, programs and lost settings. (At least, this was my experience as the person called to fix such problems).

MikusR 9y ago
I understand that you have never used Windows, but the x at the top right means close that particular window and not yes or no.
- GeekyBear 9y ago
  >Last week, Microsoft silently changed Get Windows 10 yet again. And this time, it has gone beyond the social engineering scheme that has been fooling people into inadvertently upgrading to Windows 10 for months. This time, it actually changed the behavior of the window that appears so that if you click the “Close” window box, you are actually agreeing to the upgrade. Without you knowing what just happened. https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/67367/upgradegate-microsofts-upgrade-deceptions-undermining-windows-10 https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/67367/upgradegat...
- sctb 9y ago
  Would you please not be so rude with other users? We're trying to have a discussion. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html