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German here, living in the US. For the first time in 20 years I am seriously considering to move back. There are lots of things I do not like about Germany, but

German here, living in the US. For the first time in 20 years I am seriously considering to move back. There are lots of things I do not like about Germany, but there is a sense of buying into a social contract that I am coming to appreciate more and more. I do not believe that the most knotty problems can be solved by increasing individual freedoms or simply making markets more efficient. They require some form of collective action and solidarity, which seems hard to imagine happening in the current political climate in the US. [Edit] There is something quite surreal to see a discussion about Germany’s positive image for people my age and above. I couldn’t have imagined this even ten years ago.

thekingofh 9y ago
Taking away personal freedoms isn’t ever going to be a selling feature of any country. I can think of some good things about Germany, but I wouldn’t be so quick to tout that as one of them.
- paulgb 9y ago
  My interpretation of OP is not that taking away personal freedoms is a feature, but that personal freedom absolutism is a bug. Giving up some freedom is always a consequence of society: your freedom to swim in a lake is at odds with my freedom to dump sewage there.
  - gumaflux 9y ago
    Excellent point. Most people don't want to swim in a sewerage. Except of course if someone tells them that vague concepts such as sovereignty is more important than swimming in a lake.
    - standupstandup 9y ago
      That seems like a poorly disguised dig at Brexit. I'd hope that Germany of all countries understands the importance of sovereign democratic government and the harsh conditions people will endure to preserve it. In fact the behaviour of Germany (and France) in recent times has seriously worsened my perception of these countries. I wouldn't say they're clearly better in my view than the USA, despite Trump.
  - int_19h 9y ago
    Germany seems to go to some extremes in that regard, though. E.g. I don't see why this kind of censorship is necessary or even desirable for any valid social purpose: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTQ1eBiRRRo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTQ1eBiRRRo
libertyEQ 9y ago
>They require some form of collective action and solidarity This is perhaps easier with Germany's population of ~60M vs. the US population of ~300M. I'm much more comfortable with something like this happening at the state level because, for example, I have almost nothing in common with the people of Alabama.
- igravious 9y ago
  ~80M† actually † source? The CIA :) https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2119.html#gm https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...
  - ehllo 9y ago
    just to second your comment with a comparable chart(with history) (worldbank data): https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:DEU:FRA:GBR&hl=en&dl=en#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=sp_pop_totl&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:DEU:USA&idim=region:NAC&ifdim=region&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&...
  - libertyEQ 9y ago
    Holy shit! The idea that it's 60M instead of 80M misses the fact that it is an order of magnitude different scale. Would it help you people if I said, Germany is 10^2M vs 10^3M? I'm I pedant, but this is ridiculous.
    - libertyEQ 9y ago
      Just to be clear: 60/300= 20% 80/300= 26% Not much of a difference, IMO. Make your case if you disagree.
- rainbowmverse 9y ago
  State populations are not monoliths. I live in exurban Atlanta. I have more in common with someone in Atlanta than with my neighbors. There are people who want Atlanta to break off from the rest of the state, and people further downriver who don't appreciate that Metro Atlanta has so much control over their water supply. There's no amount of division that can neatly contain a group's interests. Gerrymandered maps are an extreme example. 60m vs 300m is no more meaningful a distinction than 500k (Atlanta) vs 6m (Atlanta MSA).
muninn_ 9y ago
So I know you're a German, but I think what I'm going to say here applies more broadly and you inadvertently brought it up. I don't mean what I'm about to say to be aimed so directly toward you and it isn't a personal attack. When things are bad like they are now, we need people to stand up and do work to try and fix it instead of giving up. Instead of moving back to Germany, try and fix things here. If all the good people give up and leave, we have nothing but the bad left.
ant6n 9y ago
As a German who lived in Canada for 12 years, and moved back to Berlin for a while, I am not sure I could really live here. You constantly have struggles with a system that has rules which don't make sense. Neoliberalism seems to run deeper all the time, without people seeing it. Everybody seems to constantly try to screw you over, and overall societal trust is not very high. Politicians seem to be completely tone deaf, not understanding people's everyday struggles. Maybe it's a kind of complacency, because deep down Germans feel they're the best somehow, that they've got the best system. I guess besides the 'system' and the people that form it, Germany is actually very nice. (And the US is way worse in all these respects anyway)
- Santosh83 9y ago
  You've just described India too. Perhaps different countries are actually more similar than we like to imagine, being made of the same species? We need to solve our biggest issues at a global level because history shows that even if one country goes from strength to strength, sooner or later its surrounding nations can pull it down. Also usually the rise of one country is upon the ruins (or at least exploitation) of another, or others.
- philipps 9y ago
  Where did you end up moving to? Back to Canada? The issues you describe do seem to be increasing everywhere.

thekingofh 9y ago

Taking away personal freedoms isn’t ever going to be a selling feature of any country. I can think of some good things about Germany, but I wouldn’t be so quick to tout that as one of them.

paulgb 9y ago
My interpretation of OP is not that taking away personal freedoms is a feature, but that personal freedom absolutism is a bug. Giving up some freedom is always a consequence of society: your freedom to swim in a lake is at odds with my freedom to dump sewage there.
- gumaflux 9y ago
  Excellent point. Most people don't want to swim in a sewerage. Except of course if someone tells them that vague concepts such as sovereignty is more important than swimming in a lake.
  - standupstandup 9y ago
    That seems like a poorly disguised dig at Brexit. I'd hope that Germany of all countries understands the importance of sovereign democratic government and the harsh conditions people will endure to preserve it. In fact the behaviour of Germany (and France) in recent times has seriously worsened my perception of these countries. I wouldn't say they're clearly better in my view than the USA, despite Trump.
- int_19h 9y ago
  Germany seems to go to some extremes in that regard, though. E.g. I don't see why this kind of censorship is necessary or even desirable for any valid social purpose: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTQ1eBiRRRo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTQ1eBiRRRo

libertyEQ 9y ago

>They require some form of collective action and solidarity This is perhaps easier with Germany's population of ~60M vs. the US population of ~300M. I'm much more comfortable with something like this happening at the state level because, for example, I have almost nothing in common with the people of Alabama.

igravious 9y ago
~80M† actually † source? The CIA :) https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2119.html#gm https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...
- ehllo 9y ago
  just to second your comment with a comparable chart(with history) (worldbank data): https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:DEU:FRA:GBR&hl=en&dl=en#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=sp_pop_totl&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:DEU:USA&idim=region:NAC&ifdim=region&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&...
- libertyEQ 9y ago
  Holy shit! The idea that it's 60M instead of 80M misses the fact that it is an order of magnitude different scale. Would it help you people if I said, Germany is 10^2M vs 10^3M? I'm I pedant, but this is ridiculous.
  - libertyEQ 9y ago
    Just to be clear: 60/300= 20% 80/300= 26% Not much of a difference, IMO. Make your case if you disagree.
rainbowmverse 9y ago
State populations are not monoliths. I live in exurban Atlanta. I have more in common with someone in Atlanta than with my neighbors. There are people who want Atlanta to break off from the rest of the state, and people further downriver who don't appreciate that Metro Atlanta has so much control over their water supply. There's no amount of division that can neatly contain a group's interests. Gerrymandered maps are an extreme example. 60m vs 300m is no more meaningful a distinction than 500k (Atlanta) vs 6m (Atlanta MSA).

muninn_ 9y ago

So I know you're a German, but I think what I'm going to say here applies more broadly and you inadvertently brought it up. I don't mean what I'm about to say to be aimed so directly toward you and it isn't a personal attack. When things are bad like they are now, we need people to stand up and do work to try and fix it instead of giving up. Instead of moving back to Germany, try and fix things here. If all the good people give up and leave, we have nothing but the bad left.

ant6n 9y ago

As a German who lived in Canada for 12 years, and moved back to Berlin for a while, I am not sure I could really live here. You constantly have struggles with a system that has rules which don't make sense. Neoliberalism seems to run deeper all the time, without people seeing it. Everybody seems to constantly try to screw you over, and overall societal trust is not very high. Politicians seem to be completely tone deaf, not understanding people's everyday struggles. Maybe it's a kind of complacency, because deep down Germans feel they're the best somehow, that they've got the best system. I guess besides the 'system' and the people that form it, Germany is actually very nice. (And the US is way worse in all these respects anyway)

Santosh83 9y ago
You've just described India too. Perhaps different countries are actually more similar than we like to imagine, being made of the same species? We need to solve our biggest issues at a global level because history shows that even if one country goes from strength to strength, sooner or later its surrounding nations can pull it down. Also usually the rise of one country is upon the ruins (or at least exploitation) of another, or others.
philipps 9y ago
Where did you end up moving to? Back to Canada? The issues you describe do seem to be increasing everywhere.