7 ms·

Ancient Greeks famously started new cities with a... city square, and built around it. This is because public matters were most important to them and focusing o

by b0rsuk 9y ago

Ancient Greeks famously started new cities with a... city square, and built around it. This is because public matters were most important to them and focusing on private matters was the definition of egoism and a bad citizen. Whenever I hear about another smart city project, it seems to be done for show. There are pictures of architecture, vegetation, various mechanical systems or circuits. As if people living there didn't matter. Everyone will fit in and it will be great because concrete will do the thinking for you.

colmvp 9y ago
I feel that as certain cities become more dense, public space is either hard to find or not that well designed (i.e. too loud, dirty, not comfortable). It wouldn't surprise me in the least if cafes like Starbucks have grown in popularity partially because of that issue, as at least in my city, they have grown rapidly and practically every location is busy. I guess we've just copied the French w.r.t. third spaces.
- colechristensen 9y ago
  Could you elaborate more on your general point or third spaces in particular?
  - techsupporter 9y ago
    The "third place" is a social space that is distinct from the home and the office. Cafes, bookstores, malls, and restaurants are often these kinds of places because they're distinct from house and work and are easy places to gather and they offer various amenities. (Why are parks less commonly included? Two reasons: One is that parks are often used for other, more active, activities and usually during the day while third places are more seen as an evening and leisurely activity. Second is, especially in more urban cities, that parks are seen as "dirty" or "unseemly" because homeless or vagrant populations congregate there.)
    - b0rsuk 9y ago
      Vagrants are a real problem, and I think democratic/liberal states have no real solution for them. In the past, in authoritarian, totalitarian states or under tyranny, vagrancy was punishable by law.
      - kwhitefoot 9y ago
        Under the Vagrancy Act of 1824 it still is punishable in the UK.
    - juliendorra 9y ago
      About parks and their status as third places: in Paris (and I'd say a lot of European cities) they are used as an extension of home/friend and family activities. Birthday parties, drinks with friends, eating together. So a public spaces for private group activities. You can also spot people working there, or doing physical training, classes of small children drawing… really diverses activities. I also noticed that museum or libraries are more often included as third places than parks are (even when parks in paris got free wifi at the same time as libraries). Indeed, gyms and swimming pools will not be seen as third spaces, so parks might be conceptually somewhere in between "body hygiene spaces" (as inherited from the early 20th vision) and intellectual third spaces (idem, inherited from Vienna intellectual life early 20th). As an example Les Buttes Chaumont in Paris is clearly modeled as a very early theme park, with fake lake, fake caves… placing it at birth in the entertainment space category, generally not considered third places. Edit: the notion of "promenade" (just walking together) is central in the creation of early public parks in Paris. I think play and picnic are more recent additions, but they combine in the concepts that drive most of public park design.
farnsworthy 9y ago
Ha, think you're onto something there. Except that the last part actually involves the 3d-modeled people that are inserted into the scene (representing the perfect consumers).
jsemrau 9y ago
But we are not living in 2000 BC anymore. Public matters can be solved in distributed ways since the 1990s via public websites. What is happening right now is a much more fundamental change in the way cities operate. 1. The third social space (restaurants, cafe's, etc) becomes more and more irrelevant due to delivery services. So you can enjoy restaurant food within the comfort of your home. As a result urban space used for restaurants will likely decrease. 2. Retail is dying for a long while. Currently 10.3% of urban retail space in Singapore (where I live) is not used. Tendency increasing. The only thing working against the trend are co-working spaces, accelerators and incubators. We have to come to terms that instead of building cities for cars we need to build cities for mobile humans with a cellphone.
- saywatnow 9y ago
  > The third social space (restaurants, cafe's, etc) becomes more and more irrelevant due to delivery services. Did you really mean to write that? :-) To be fair, delivery services aren't really responsible for undermining the "third space" nature of these places: we've been treating them increasingly as retail conveniences for a very long time, failing to acknowledge their social and psychological role. But it is true that the rise in delivery makes the resulting isolation even more stark.
- tibu 9y ago
  > Public matters can be solved in distributed ways since the 1990s via public websites. I don't think so. Public websites and Web based social networks are useful but final decisions are not made there. Really good relationships are only born during personal interactions. I don't say remote relationships are impossible but they usually cover only one side of your life - professional, entertainment etc. Personal relationships are much more diverse. The fact that you touch, feel, smell somebody, see the whole body makes a personal relationship much more complex than just a digital relationship. That's why people who can afford move out to suburban areas where you have time for such interactions. I think this is the only way to go. Some decentralized smart devices can help our lives but without personal interactions it won't be better.
  - 9y ago

by b0rsuk 9y ago

colmvp 9y ago

I feel that as certain cities become more dense, public space is either hard to find or not that well designed (i.e. too loud, dirty, not comfortable). It wouldn't surprise me in the least if cafes like Starbucks have grown in popularity partially because of that issue, as at least in my city, they have grown rapidly and practically every location is busy. I guess we've just copied the French w.r.t. third spaces.

colechristensen 9y ago
Could you elaborate more on your general point or third spaces in particular?
- techsupporter 9y ago
  The "third place" is a social space that is distinct from the home and the office. Cafes, bookstores, malls, and restaurants are often these kinds of places because they're distinct from house and work and are easy places to gather and they offer various amenities. (Why are parks less commonly included? Two reasons: One is that parks are often used for other, more active, activities and usually during the day while third places are more seen as an evening and leisurely activity. Second is, especially in more urban cities, that parks are seen as "dirty" or "unseemly" because homeless or vagrant populations congregate there.)
  - b0rsuk 9y ago
    Vagrants are a real problem, and I think democratic/liberal states have no real solution for them. In the past, in authoritarian, totalitarian states or under tyranny, vagrancy was punishable by law.
    - kwhitefoot 9y ago
      Under the Vagrancy Act of 1824 it still is punishable in the UK.
  - juliendorra 9y ago
    About parks and their status as third places: in Paris (and I'd say a lot of European cities) they are used as an extension of home/friend and family activities. Birthday parties, drinks with friends, eating together. So a public spaces for private group activities. You can also spot people working there, or doing physical training, classes of small children drawing… really diverses activities. I also noticed that museum or libraries are more often included as third places than parks are (even when parks in paris got free wifi at the same time as libraries). Indeed, gyms and swimming pools will not be seen as third spaces, so parks might be conceptually somewhere in between "body hygiene spaces" (as inherited from the early 20th vision) and intellectual third spaces (idem, inherited from Vienna intellectual life early 20th). As an example Les Buttes Chaumont in Paris is clearly modeled as a very early theme park, with fake lake, fake caves… placing it at birth in the entertainment space category, generally not considered third places. Edit: the notion of "promenade" (just walking together) is central in the creation of early public parks in Paris. I think play and picnic are more recent additions, but they combine in the concepts that drive most of public park design.

farnsworthy 9y ago

Ha, think you're onto something there. Except that the last part actually involves the 3d-modeled people that are inserted into the scene (representing the perfect consumers).

jsemrau 9y ago

But we are not living in 2000 BC anymore. Public matters can be solved in distributed ways since the 1990s via public websites. What is happening right now is a much more fundamental change in the way cities operate. 1. The third social space (restaurants, cafe's, etc) becomes more and more irrelevant due to delivery services. So you can enjoy restaurant food within the comfort of your home. As a result urban space used for restaurants will likely decrease. 2. Retail is dying for a long while. Currently 10.3% of urban retail space in Singapore (where I live) is not used. Tendency increasing. The only thing working against the trend are co-working spaces, accelerators and incubators. We have to come to terms that instead of building cities for cars we need to build cities for mobile humans with a cellphone.

saywatnow 9y ago
> The third social space (restaurants, cafe's, etc) becomes more and more irrelevant due to delivery services. Did you really mean to write that? :-) To be fair, delivery services aren't really responsible for undermining the "third space" nature of these places: we've been treating them increasingly as retail conveniences for a very long time, failing to acknowledge their social and psychological role. But it is true that the rise in delivery makes the resulting isolation even more stark.
tibu 9y ago
> Public matters can be solved in distributed ways since the 1990s via public websites. I don't think so. Public websites and Web based social networks are useful but final decisions are not made there. Really good relationships are only born during personal interactions. I don't say remote relationships are impossible but they usually cover only one side of your life - professional, entertainment etc. Personal relationships are much more diverse. The fact that you touch, feel, smell somebody, see the whole body makes a personal relationship much more complex than just a digital relationship. That's why people who can afford move out to suburban areas where you have time for such interactions. I think this is the only way to go. Some decentralized smart devices can help our lives but without personal interactions it won't be better.
- 9y ago