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Actually, we all need to grapple with the fact that big corporations are behaving more and more like startups because they can. If Google has a higher standard

Actually, we all need to grapple with the fact that big corporations are behaving more and more like startups because they can. If Google has a higher standard (as has been reported by Google SWEs who perform interviews at Google right here on HN) for entering SWEs based on their age, then we need to take a hard look at that. Yeah, it's illegal and unfair, but no one over 40 and really over 35 is allowed to be a great "junior dev" - they are only comfortable w over 35 who have been in the industry. The ladder is pulled up at most places for even excellently skilled beginners after 35. One should be able to enter if one has skill at a higher level, but we all need to face that the level one must hit at 35+, as a woman, as a person in any underrepresented category in this industry is much higher than it is for those who are a good "culture fit".

cgh 9y ago
Yes, you make good points. A distinction should be made between junior 35+ people and 35+ people with at least a decade of experience. But I don't think that's exclusively a software engineering issue. If I tried to become an electrician at 40, my guess is I'd encounter some bias, though probably less than in software. One other thing: by "BigCorps", I'm referring to things like banks, Wal-Mart and so forth, not technology companies like eg Google.
- amyjess 9y ago
  > One other thing: by "BigCorps", I'm referring to things like banks, Wal-Mart and so forth, not technology companies like eg Google. Yeah, I'd much rather work at a traditional conservative BigCorp than a Silicon Valley company that never grew up from startup mentality. If you do want to stay I tech, I'd recommend looking at the B2B telecom sector. It's far, far more conservative then any other part of the tech industry. They're the only tech companies that I've seen ban T-shirts in the office.
  - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
    I'd say this is a great tip for a candidate who isn't underrepresented in tech. I just came from an interview at a conservative midwest company that isn't technically a "tech" company but has a huge tech dept. Got to the end of 5 interviews at breakneck speed and with lots of acclaim from the team about my speed and competence...that is until they saw me. Everyone, and I mean everyone in the engineering dept., save one woman (she must be a 20Xer) was firmly within the typical tech demographic. I felt I did quite well despite suddenly being asked CTO-type questions. I was told there would be whiteboard algorithms and questions about the company itself. They knew I'd never worked at a big company with a giant code base before, and yet they were enthusiastic about my ability to contribute-- it had come up and was not an issue. They wanted to fly me out and put me up in a hotel. It turned out I didn't need it because I happened to be there, but they offered. They even talked to me about salary numbers. When I got to the on-site, I got questions more fitting for a candidate with many years' experience with a giant code base at a big company. Still, I felt I answered well. In the end, they told me I didn't answer those questions quickly enough (not correctly enough-- just quickly enough). I'm fairly certain that If I were given the chance to actually work at a large company, I'd know the answers to these system design issues without having to think to arrive at the correct answer. I'd know from experience. If I'd looked like more of a "culture fit" let's say, but still over 40, I think it might have been fine. By the way, the city that this company is in is 82% African American. Its tech department was 0% African American.
    - sn9 9y ago
      I was under the impression that these sorts of BigCorps were actually a better place for the underrepresented and frequently have more diverse technical workforces (along race/age/gender lines). I just got hired by one in Texas that reflects that impression, which I had before I ever interviewed there.
      - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
        That is good to know. I think Austin shows promise in this way.
  - gordaco 9y ago
    I'm working in a B2B telecom and I haven't seen that level of conservativeness, although in general I agree that they are conservative. But it's a wonderful place to work in many aspects: it's stable, pays well, and in general less clients means less headaches and a more focused development. They don't immediately adopt new technologies, but frankly, nowadays I see that as more as a feature than a bug (although once in a blue moon I wish the delay in finally adopting them, when they have been successfully proven themselves, wasn't so long). The most glaringly conservative aspect of my current job is its very rigid adherence to process. Again I must say that, having worked in places where it wasn't the case, I'm so glad that process is followed strictly. The big problem with this job is that I've acquired a ton of domain knowledge that probably won't be useful in another job. This means that I need to keep other tech skills (algorithms, programming languages...) much more finely honed. On the other hand, I've acquired top notch documentation skills. EDIT: I also can confirm that there is plenty of >40yo people here. Definitely a good place to be when you reach that age, although I'm only in my eearly thirties. I've found also a high level of diversity in general, which is very, very good.

cgh 9y ago

Yes, you make good points. A distinction should be made between junior 35+ people and 35+ people with at least a decade of experience. But I don't think that's exclusively a software engineering issue. If I tried to become an electrician at 40, my guess is I'd encounter some bias, though probably less than in software. One other thing: by "BigCorps", I'm referring to things like banks, Wal-Mart and so forth, not technology companies like eg Google.

amyjess 9y ago
> One other thing: by "BigCorps", I'm referring to things like banks, Wal-Mart and so forth, not technology companies like eg Google. Yeah, I'd much rather work at a traditional conservative BigCorp than a Silicon Valley company that never grew up from startup mentality. If you do want to stay I tech, I'd recommend looking at the B2B telecom sector. It's far, far more conservative then any other part of the tech industry. They're the only tech companies that I've seen ban T-shirts in the office.
- brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
  I'd say this is a great tip for a candidate who isn't underrepresented in tech. I just came from an interview at a conservative midwest company that isn't technically a "tech" company but has a huge tech dept. Got to the end of 5 interviews at breakneck speed and with lots of acclaim from the team about my speed and competence...that is until they saw me. Everyone, and I mean everyone in the engineering dept., save one woman (she must be a 20Xer) was firmly within the typical tech demographic. I felt I did quite well despite suddenly being asked CTO-type questions. I was told there would be whiteboard algorithms and questions about the company itself. They knew I'd never worked at a big company with a giant code base before, and yet they were enthusiastic about my ability to contribute-- it had come up and was not an issue. They wanted to fly me out and put me up in a hotel. It turned out I didn't need it because I happened to be there, but they offered. They even talked to me about salary numbers. When I got to the on-site, I got questions more fitting for a candidate with many years' experience with a giant code base at a big company. Still, I felt I answered well. In the end, they told me I didn't answer those questions quickly enough (not correctly enough-- just quickly enough). I'm fairly certain that If I were given the chance to actually work at a large company, I'd know the answers to these system design issues without having to think to arrive at the correct answer. I'd know from experience. If I'd looked like more of a "culture fit" let's say, but still over 40, I think it might have been fine. By the way, the city that this company is in is 82% African American. Its tech department was 0% African American.
  - sn9 9y ago
    I was under the impression that these sorts of BigCorps were actually a better place for the underrepresented and frequently have more diverse technical workforces (along race/age/gender lines). I just got hired by one in Texas that reflects that impression, which I had before I ever interviewed there.
    - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
      That is good to know. I think Austin shows promise in this way.
- gordaco 9y ago
  I'm working in a B2B telecom and I haven't seen that level of conservativeness, although in general I agree that they are conservative. But it's a wonderful place to work in many aspects: it's stable, pays well, and in general less clients means less headaches and a more focused development. They don't immediately adopt new technologies, but frankly, nowadays I see that as more as a feature than a bug (although once in a blue moon I wish the delay in finally adopting them, when they have been successfully proven themselves, wasn't so long). The most glaringly conservative aspect of my current job is its very rigid adherence to process. Again I must say that, having worked in places where it wasn't the case, I'm so glad that process is followed strictly. The big problem with this job is that I've acquired a ton of domain knowledge that probably won't be useful in another job. This means that I need to keep other tech skills (algorithms, programming languages...) much more finely honed. On the other hand, I've acquired top notch documentation skills. EDIT: I also can confirm that there is plenty of >40yo people here. Definitely a good place to be when you reach that age, although I'm only in my eearly thirties. I've found also a high level of diversity in general, which is very, very good.