4 ms·

Can confirm. Also, I suspect a lot of this "there's no life after 40" stuff mainly relates to startups and certain small companies. It certainly doesn't apply t

by cgh 9y ago

Can confirm. Also, I suspect a lot of this "there's no life after 40" stuff mainly relates to startups and certain small companies. It certainly doesn't apply to BigCorps.

jcrawfordor 9y ago
I suspect this is true. I hear the "middle-aged programmers aren't employable" story a lot on the internet, but in the large organization where I work I, in my mid-20s, am conspicuously very junior. Most of my coworkers are middle-aged, most of the program management are getting into their '50s, as you might expect of someone in a role seen as senior.
- brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
  but how many people who are middle age try to "enter" the industry and succeed? I can answer that for you: those who have close friends in power who wish to hire them. As you age yourself, you may see this if you are sensitive to it. We need to separate the two groups, because thrre are two issues here. 1.aging programmers already working in the industry and 2.those who are accomplished in another dying field who decided to/had the good fortune to be able to reeducate themselves in a new field for them--programming. It's the second group that have trouble even getting an interview, and when they do, are often passed up for a younger "junior dev" who is not as skilled. I realize I can only speak to what I've seen here in NYC, but I keep seeing it, and I see it a lot. So are we going to acknowledge it? i hope so. I hope we can find a way to allow people to change paths in life when their path ends, if they are humble and willing to work hard. That is the kind of society I'd like to foster.
  - cheriot 9y ago
    Skepticism of bootcamps (and other non traditional paths) is not the same thing as agism. This industry is further along in figuring out the former than others, but you're right that it has further to go. It's just not the same as agism, though.
    - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
      You are correct, of course. But when someone over 40 has a much deeper understanding of programming in several languages, a CS degree, AND experience from 2 bootcamps, AND at teaching (in 2 bootcamps, at a University, and with private clients) AND has coding experience at a school, with private clients, and one's own side projects in several languages- a linguistics blog, journalism and technical writing experience, and they are then turned down for a junior technical writing role at a company where the tech writers can't code at the same level, I don't know... it is hard to say what that is, isn't it? But yes, I completely understand skepticism of the breadth and depth of the skills of those whose ONLY experience of programming was at a bootcamp. And when that same company makes a mistake in their own assessment (which you politely point out after you are told you are incorrect in your technical writing), and when that same company hires someone with virtually no experience in any of these things as its next writer hire and also for its manager of technical writing, and while those two employees are in their 20s...what would you think? Am I excluding a possible interpretation? "Culture fit"? The candidate we speak of doesn't fit the expected cultural profile in several areas for a tech company. Might it be that in some other form? It is just really tough to say. I realize it stinks to see how blatant ageism can be. It makes all of us feel unsettled for our own futures-- it is also just stupid and embarrassing in an industry that prides itself on being so smart. But we have to get real about it. We also have to get real about sexism and racism. It seems to take more than a village (of women at Google, Uber, Tessla, etc.) shouting it out with lawsuits and news articles. We have not even begun to handle race issues in tech, perhaps because so few can break through. We need to face these things and stop trying to explain them away with coded words like "culture fit" or "updated skills" (when the skills are updated, of course). We need to look around our departments and seriously ask if there was ever a new hire over 40. Then, we can dig into these issues. We have to stop knee-jerk dismissing the stories of those who are shafted by these practices. Yes, it is uncomfortable.
- amyjess 9y ago
  I work at a mid-sized B2B telecom (just over 500 employees), and looking at the ages of my coworkers, we have more 30+ people than not, and there is a very large contingent of 40+ and even some 50+ people here. It's definitely the kind of company you want to work at if you're middle-aged.
- dennis_jeeves 9y ago
  > Most of my coworkers are middle-aged, most of the program management are getting into their '50s List this firm please, it might help someone.
brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
Actually, we all need to grapple with the fact that big corporations are behaving more and more like startups because they can. If Google has a higher standard (as has been reported by Google SWEs who perform interviews at Google right here on HN) for entering SWEs based on their age, then we need to take a hard look at that. Yeah, it's illegal and unfair, but no one over 40 and really over 35 is allowed to be a great "junior dev" - they are only comfortable w over 35 who have been in the industry. The ladder is pulled up at most places for even excellently skilled beginners after 35. One should be able to enter if one has skill at a higher level, but we all need to face that the level one must hit at 35+, as a woman, as a person in any underrepresented category in this industry is much higher than it is for those who are a good "culture fit".
- cgh 9y ago
  Yes, you make good points. A distinction should be made between junior 35+ people and 35+ people with at least a decade of experience. But I don't think that's exclusively a software engineering issue. If I tried to become an electrician at 40, my guess is I'd encounter some bias, though probably less than in software. One other thing: by "BigCorps", I'm referring to things like banks, Wal-Mart and so forth, not technology companies like eg Google.
  - amyjess 9y ago
    > One other thing: by "BigCorps", I'm referring to things like banks, Wal-Mart and so forth, not technology companies like eg Google. Yeah, I'd much rather work at a traditional conservative BigCorp than a Silicon Valley company that never grew up from startup mentality. If you do want to stay I tech, I'd recommend looking at the B2B telecom sector. It's far, far more conservative then any other part of the tech industry. They're the only tech companies that I've seen ban T-shirts in the office.
    - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
      I'd say this is a great tip for a candidate who isn't underrepresented in tech. I just came from an interview at a conservative midwest company that isn't technically a "tech" company but has a huge tech dept. Got to the end of 5 interviews at breakneck speed and with lots of acclaim from the team about my speed and competence...that is until they saw me. Everyone, and I mean everyone in the engineering dept., save one woman (she must be a 20Xer) was firmly within the typical tech demographic. I felt I did quite well despite suddenly being asked CTO-type questions. I was told there would be whiteboard algorithms and questions about the company itself. They knew I'd never worked at a big company with a giant code base before, and yet they were enthusiastic about my ability to contribute-- it had come up and was not an issue. They wanted to fly me out and put me up in a hotel. It turned out I didn't need it because I happened to be there, but they offered. They even talked to me about salary numbers. When I got to the on-site, I got questions more fitting for a candidate with many years' experience with a giant code base at a big company. Still, I felt I answered well. In the end, they told me I didn't answer those questions quickly enough (not correctly enough-- just quickly enough). I'm fairly certain that If I were given the chance to actually work at a large company, I'd know the answers to these system design issues without having to think to arrive at the correct answer. I'd know from experience. If I'd looked like more of a "culture fit" let's say, but still over 40, I think it might have been fine. By the way, the city that this company is in is 82% African American. Its tech department was 0% African American.

by cgh 9y ago

Can confirm. Also, I suspect a lot of this "there's no life after 40" stuff mainly relates to startups and certain small companies. It certainly doesn't apply to BigCorps.

jcrawfordor 9y ago

I suspect this is true. I hear the "middle-aged programmers aren't employable" story a lot on the internet, but in the large organization where I work I, in my mid-20s, am conspicuously very junior. Most of my coworkers are middle-aged, most of the program management are getting into their '50s, as you might expect of someone in a role seen as senior.

brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
but how many people who are middle age try to "enter" the industry and succeed? I can answer that for you: those who have close friends in power who wish to hire them. As you age yourself, you may see this if you are sensitive to it. We need to separate the two groups, because thrre are two issues here. 1.aging programmers already working in the industry and 2.those who are accomplished in another dying field who decided to/had the good fortune to be able to reeducate themselves in a new field for them--programming. It's the second group that have trouble even getting an interview, and when they do, are often passed up for a younger "junior dev" who is not as skilled. I realize I can only speak to what I've seen here in NYC, but I keep seeing it, and I see it a lot. So are we going to acknowledge it? i hope so. I hope we can find a way to allow people to change paths in life when their path ends, if they are humble and willing to work hard. That is the kind of society I'd like to foster.
- cheriot 9y ago
  Skepticism of bootcamps (and other non traditional paths) is not the same thing as agism. This industry is further along in figuring out the former than others, but you're right that it has further to go. It's just not the same as agism, though.
  - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
    You are correct, of course. But when someone over 40 has a much deeper understanding of programming in several languages, a CS degree, AND experience from 2 bootcamps, AND at teaching (in 2 bootcamps, at a University, and with private clients) AND has coding experience at a school, with private clients, and one's own side projects in several languages- a linguistics blog, journalism and technical writing experience, and they are then turned down for a junior technical writing role at a company where the tech writers can't code at the same level, I don't know... it is hard to say what that is, isn't it? But yes, I completely understand skepticism of the breadth and depth of the skills of those whose ONLY experience of programming was at a bootcamp. And when that same company makes a mistake in their own assessment (which you politely point out after you are told you are incorrect in your technical writing), and when that same company hires someone with virtually no experience in any of these things as its next writer hire and also for its manager of technical writing, and while those two employees are in their 20s...what would you think? Am I excluding a possible interpretation? "Culture fit"? The candidate we speak of doesn't fit the expected cultural profile in several areas for a tech company. Might it be that in some other form? It is just really tough to say. I realize it stinks to see how blatant ageism can be. It makes all of us feel unsettled for our own futures-- it is also just stupid and embarrassing in an industry that prides itself on being so smart. But we have to get real about it. We also have to get real about sexism and racism. It seems to take more than a village (of women at Google, Uber, Tessla, etc.) shouting it out with lawsuits and news articles. We have not even begun to handle race issues in tech, perhaps because so few can break through. We need to face these things and stop trying to explain them away with coded words like "culture fit" or "updated skills" (when the skills are updated, of course). We need to look around our departments and seriously ask if there was ever a new hire over 40. Then, we can dig into these issues. We have to stop knee-jerk dismissing the stories of those who are shafted by these practices. Yes, it is uncomfortable.
amyjess 9y ago
I work at a mid-sized B2B telecom (just over 500 employees), and looking at the ages of my coworkers, we have more 30+ people than not, and there is a very large contingent of 40+ and even some 50+ people here. It's definitely the kind of company you want to work at if you're middle-aged.
dennis_jeeves 9y ago
> Most of my coworkers are middle-aged, most of the program management are getting into their '50s List this firm please, it might help someone.

brooklyn_ashey 9y ago

Actually, we all need to grapple with the fact that big corporations are behaving more and more like startups because they can. If Google has a higher standard (as has been reported by Google SWEs who perform interviews at Google right here on HN) for entering SWEs based on their age, then we need to take a hard look at that. Yeah, it's illegal and unfair, but no one over 40 and really over 35 is allowed to be a great "junior dev" - they are only comfortable w over 35 who have been in the industry. The ladder is pulled up at most places for even excellently skilled beginners after 35. One should be able to enter if one has skill at a higher level, but we all need to face that the level one must hit at 35+, as a woman, as a person in any underrepresented category in this industry is much higher than it is for those who are a good "culture fit".

cgh 9y ago
Yes, you make good points. A distinction should be made between junior 35+ people and 35+ people with at least a decade of experience. But I don't think that's exclusively a software engineering issue. If I tried to become an electrician at 40, my guess is I'd encounter some bias, though probably less than in software. One other thing: by "BigCorps", I'm referring to things like banks, Wal-Mart and so forth, not technology companies like eg Google.
- amyjess 9y ago
  > One other thing: by "BigCorps", I'm referring to things like banks, Wal-Mart and so forth, not technology companies like eg Google. Yeah, I'd much rather work at a traditional conservative BigCorp than a Silicon Valley company that never grew up from startup mentality. If you do want to stay I tech, I'd recommend looking at the B2B telecom sector. It's far, far more conservative then any other part of the tech industry. They're the only tech companies that I've seen ban T-shirts in the office.
  - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
    I'd say this is a great tip for a candidate who isn't underrepresented in tech. I just came from an interview at a conservative midwest company that isn't technically a "tech" company but has a huge tech dept. Got to the end of 5 interviews at breakneck speed and with lots of acclaim from the team about my speed and competence...that is until they saw me. Everyone, and I mean everyone in the engineering dept., save one woman (she must be a 20Xer) was firmly within the typical tech demographic. I felt I did quite well despite suddenly being asked CTO-type questions. I was told there would be whiteboard algorithms and questions about the company itself. They knew I'd never worked at a big company with a giant code base before, and yet they were enthusiastic about my ability to contribute-- it had come up and was not an issue. They wanted to fly me out and put me up in a hotel. It turned out I didn't need it because I happened to be there, but they offered. They even talked to me about salary numbers. When I got to the on-site, I got questions more fitting for a candidate with many years' experience with a giant code base at a big company. Still, I felt I answered well. In the end, they told me I didn't answer those questions quickly enough (not correctly enough-- just quickly enough). I'm fairly certain that If I were given the chance to actually work at a large company, I'd know the answers to these system design issues without having to think to arrive at the correct answer. I'd know from experience. If I'd looked like more of a "culture fit" let's say, but still over 40, I think it might have been fine. By the way, the city that this company is in is 82% African American. Its tech department was 0% African American.