4 ms·

What if you can't take it down? What if they end up on Tor? And tbh, this does sound very aggressive and Nazi-like; round up the [group we don't like] and exte

by tscs37 9y ago

What if you can't take it down? What if they end up on Tor? And tbh, this does sound very aggressive and Nazi-like; round up the [group we don't like] and exterminate. It's quite a hateful philosphy to have.

pwinnski 9y ago
Refusing to provide a free platform for them to publish their thoughts is not in any way, shape, or form equivalent to, or even similar to, the "extermination" committed by Nazis, and desired by their modern adherents.
- tscs37 9y ago
  The way it was phrased, it definitely was. And especially as a german I am not comfortable with some of the solutions proposed in this entire thread.
  - zimpenfish 9y ago
    > as a german Your country has literally banned Nazis, mentions of Nazis, symbols of Nazis, etc. Hell, even Twitter blocks Nazis in Germany. Has it descended down the slippery slope into authoritarian disaster?
    - tscs37 9y ago
      No, mainly because only literal Nazis are banned. You may hold any opinion which does not violate the dignity of humans, no matter right or left. And we do have a fairly active right and far right.
- flunhat 9y ago
  Save your energy - they just think that reddit banning a pro-racism community or a internet infra company refusing to serve a neo-nazi website basically means that we live in an authoritarian society. Never mind that the slippery slope argument is a known logical fallacy, never mind that these companies are private entities and can do what they like, never mind that if Nazis ever gain power they will literally, physically exterminate people they don't like, never mind that people are still free to express their own views on public platforms, never mind all of that. Ugh. The only consolation is that these communities are being censored, taken offline, and driven onto platforms where they cannot reach nearly as many people as before, and that this will continue to happen, no matter what HN libertarians say. And that the tech community is not nearly a-ok with hosting racist speech as HN would make you believe. We are moving forward, and what you're seeing is a last-ditch reaction to pro-racism, neo-nazi communities being marginalized.
  - tscs37 9y ago
    >they just think that reddit banning a pro-racism community or a internet infra company refusing to serve a neo-nazi website basically means that we live in an authoritarian society. No, I think it's unhealthy and may lead to such a society, not that we live in such. Do not confuse a fear of a possible future with an irrational fear of a present that isn't. >Never mind that the slippery slope argument is a known logical fallacy, I hope you're aware of the fallacy fallacy, yes? I think that might clear things atleast partially up. The problem I see here is that this is a slippery slope that my country has gone down in the past already and it pains me to see tendencies of this happening in the us. >never mind that these companies are private entities and can do what they like An argument can be made that sufficiently large social networks (2 million users or more, for example) should be held to the same standard as a government by the nature of exerting a real power over the people in the network. >never mind that if Nazis ever gain power they will literally, physically exterminate people they don't like I think you misinterprete the argument. My worry is not Nazis. Not that I would consider the US citizens who claim to be Nazis to be real Nazis (they're more like kids playing lets-pretend in comparison). My actual worry is people who will be hurt by this that you don't see because you and people who want to silence Nazis are wearing blinders on each side of your head. If you want to prevent Nazis from taking power, the easiest solution is to find out why these people are doing the things they are doing and going against the root cause. Nazi-ism is merely a symptom. >never mind all of that First they came... I think you know how the rest goes. I forgot. >and that this will continue to happen, no matter what HN libertarians say The daily stormer is on Tor now, no? Can you censor Tor? All the pitchforks do is to drive these people into places where they are safe from them and where the most dedicated of their followers can fester and boil the ideology. >We are moving forward, and what you're seeing is a last-ditch reaction to pro-racism, neo-nazi communities being marginalized. Maybe. Maybe people are reacting to things you don't want to acknlowedge and not to actual neo-nazi communities being banned. There are risks there and I do hope you recognize that people who say this is bad are not automatically defending Neo-Nazis. As that too would be a fallacy.
    - sintaxi 9y ago
      people who think slippery-slope is a fallacy have never fed a wild animal food.
- threatofrain 9y ago
  At some point one questions, though, the means by which one is preventing speech, and why it's even an effective technique. In doing so, I think the answer would reveal something about the heavy-handed use of politically vulnerable internet infrastructure. It also raises questions about whether modern societies should expand notions of private and public divisions over digital infrastructure, so that the tools for public assembly might be adapted for the norms of modern communication.
zimpenfish 9y ago
> [group we don't like] I appreciate that you're trying to trivialise this into some kind of "different sports team" difference of opinion to score a cheap point but you're wrong - these people want others dead, removed, or subjugated purely because they're different. And that is something that in 2017, the human race should be saying a very strong "No, get to fuck, you scrotes" to.
- tscs37 9y ago
  >these people want others dead, removed, or subjugated purely because they're different. And the other sports team just wants different things to be done. Admittedly not as drastic... yet. >And that is something that in 2017, the human race should be saying a very strong "No, get to fuck, you scrotes" to. In 2017, almost 2018, the human race should have learned how to control these kind of ideologies without using brutish tribe mentality.
  - zimpenfish 9y ago
    > the human race should have It hasn't. Therefore we can either shrug our shoulders and let people get on with their subjugations and violations or we can accept that we're not an enlightened race of ubermensch ripped from a Star Trek episode and utilise our "brutish tribe mentality" to protect those who need it.
    - tscs37 9y ago
      So just because we don't have yet means we will never? Oh my, I think that might be a fallacy. Not that you are wrong because of that but you are wrong for different reasons. Possibly because Star Trek has little to do with an Übermensch and considering the context you also used the word wrong.

by tscs37 9y ago

pwinnski 9y ago

Refusing to provide a free platform for them to publish their thoughts is not in any way, shape, or form equivalent to, or even similar to, the "extermination" committed by Nazis, and desired by their modern adherents.

tscs37 9y ago
The way it was phrased, it definitely was. And especially as a german I am not comfortable with some of the solutions proposed in this entire thread.
- zimpenfish 9y ago
  > as a german Your country has literally banned Nazis, mentions of Nazis, symbols of Nazis, etc. Hell, even Twitter blocks Nazis in Germany. Has it descended down the slippery slope into authoritarian disaster?
  - tscs37 9y ago
    No, mainly because only literal Nazis are banned. You may hold any opinion which does not violate the dignity of humans, no matter right or left. And we do have a fairly active right and far right.
flunhat 9y ago
Save your energy - they just think that reddit banning a pro-racism community or a internet infra company refusing to serve a neo-nazi website basically means that we live in an authoritarian society. Never mind that the slippery slope argument is a known logical fallacy, never mind that these companies are private entities and can do what they like, never mind that if Nazis ever gain power they will literally, physically exterminate people they don't like, never mind that people are still free to express their own views on public platforms, never mind all of that. Ugh. The only consolation is that these communities are being censored, taken offline, and driven onto platforms where they cannot reach nearly as many people as before, and that this will continue to happen, no matter what HN libertarians say. And that the tech community is not nearly a-ok with hosting racist speech as HN would make you believe. We are moving forward, and what you're seeing is a last-ditch reaction to pro-racism, neo-nazi communities being marginalized.
- tscs37 9y ago
  >they just think that reddit banning a pro-racism community or a internet infra company refusing to serve a neo-nazi website basically means that we live in an authoritarian society. No, I think it's unhealthy and may lead to such a society, not that we live in such. Do not confuse a fear of a possible future with an irrational fear of a present that isn't. >Never mind that the slippery slope argument is a known logical fallacy, I hope you're aware of the fallacy fallacy, yes? I think that might clear things atleast partially up. The problem I see here is that this is a slippery slope that my country has gone down in the past already and it pains me to see tendencies of this happening in the us. >never mind that these companies are private entities and can do what they like An argument can be made that sufficiently large social networks (2 million users or more, for example) should be held to the same standard as a government by the nature of exerting a real power over the people in the network. >never mind that if Nazis ever gain power they will literally, physically exterminate people they don't like I think you misinterprete the argument. My worry is not Nazis. Not that I would consider the US citizens who claim to be Nazis to be real Nazis (they're more like kids playing lets-pretend in comparison). My actual worry is people who will be hurt by this that you don't see because you and people who want to silence Nazis are wearing blinders on each side of your head. If you want to prevent Nazis from taking power, the easiest solution is to find out why these people are doing the things they are doing and going against the root cause. Nazi-ism is merely a symptom. >never mind all of that First they came... I think you know how the rest goes. I forgot. >and that this will continue to happen, no matter what HN libertarians say The daily stormer is on Tor now, no? Can you censor Tor? All the pitchforks do is to drive these people into places where they are safe from them and where the most dedicated of their followers can fester and boil the ideology. >We are moving forward, and what you're seeing is a last-ditch reaction to pro-racism, neo-nazi communities being marginalized. Maybe. Maybe people are reacting to things you don't want to acknlowedge and not to actual neo-nazi communities being banned. There are risks there and I do hope you recognize that people who say this is bad are not automatically defending Neo-Nazis. As that too would be a fallacy.
  - sintaxi 9y ago
    people who think slippery-slope is a fallacy have never fed a wild animal food.
threatofrain 9y ago
At some point one questions, though, the means by which one is preventing speech, and why it's even an effective technique. In doing so, I think the answer would reveal something about the heavy-handed use of politically vulnerable internet infrastructure. It also raises questions about whether modern societies should expand notions of private and public divisions over digital infrastructure, so that the tools for public assembly might be adapted for the norms of modern communication.

zimpenfish 9y ago

> [group we don't like] I appreciate that you're trying to trivialise this into some kind of "different sports team" difference of opinion to score a cheap point but you're wrong - these people want others dead, removed, or subjugated purely because they're different. And that is something that in 2017, the human race should be saying a very strong "No, get to fuck, you scrotes" to.

tscs37 9y ago
>these people want others dead, removed, or subjugated purely because they're different. And the other sports team just wants different things to be done. Admittedly not as drastic... yet. >And that is something that in 2017, the human race should be saying a very strong "No, get to fuck, you scrotes" to. In 2017, almost 2018, the human race should have learned how to control these kind of ideologies without using brutish tribe mentality.
- zimpenfish 9y ago
  > the human race should have It hasn't. Therefore we can either shrug our shoulders and let people get on with their subjugations and violations or we can accept that we're not an enlightened race of ubermensch ripped from a Star Trek episode and utilise our "brutish tribe mentality" to protect those who need it.
  - tscs37 9y ago
    So just because we don't have yet means we will never? Oh my, I think that might be a fallacy. Not that you are wrong because of that but you are wrong for different reasons. Possibly because Star Trek has little to do with an Übermensch and considering the context you also used the word wrong.