7 ms·

German law prohibits "transmitting equipment which, by its form, purports to be another object or is disguised under an object of daily use and, due to such cir

German law prohibits "transmitting equipment which, by its form, purports to be another object or is disguised under an object of daily use and, due to such circumstances, is particularly suitable and intended for intercepting the non-publicly spoken words of another person without their detection" (§ 90 TKG). This was the basis for this statement by the regulator and explains why it was not restricted to certain uses. It was not based on insecurity of those devices. Even if they were perfectly secure that would not change anything.

donatj 9y ago
It's pretty well known though in this day and age that smart watches can have recording capabilities, so if the problem is that "a watch looks like something that can't record" all smart watches should be banned by that logic. I don't feel like that actually applies here, but if it does it should also apply to the entire smartwatch category.
- 2112wawa 9y ago
  I didn't know that until now.
- germanier 9y ago
  The devices this is about allow to listen in remotely. I am pretty sure that even many of the wearers (children) don't know that. At least some of those devices don't look like a smartwatch on first glance either, e.g. http://www.eltern-zeit.de/wp-content/uploads/lokato-kidswatch-gps-smart-watch-uhr-e1489949608512.jpg http://www.eltern-zeit.de/wp-content/uploads/lokato-kidswatc...
- curun1r 9y ago
  > It's pretty well known though in this day and age that smart watches can have recording capabilities This isn't true for hybrid smartwatches and fitness trackers. Those devices don't have listening devices and require tethered cell phones for internet communication, which already enables GPS tracking. It'll be interesting to see if this has been written in such a way as to exclude those or lump them in with the devices being targeted.
- Mithaldu 9y ago
  In the USA maybe, but german culture in general doesn't track the newest tech as fervently.
  - Mithaldu 9y ago
    Goddammit you people are fucking idiots.
gregmac 9y ago
Shouldn't mobile phones also be banned under that definition? Or at least mobile phones "disguised" in your pants pocket or purse.
- jrs95 9y ago
  At this point it's safe to assume everyone is carrying an active microphone all the time. They ought to update this law to account for that reality.
  - germanier 9y ago
    The law in its current form was passed in 2012 and was specifically restricted to devices that have the purpose of spying. We can safely assume that the lawmakers were aware of current technology.
    - sandov 9y ago
      And phones don't have the purpose of spying?
    - jrs95 9y ago
      If Germany lawmakers actually understand this stuff, I'm jealous. American politicians have basically no clue at all.
      - germanier 9y ago
        Certainly not everybody. This law was last changed as a part of a large telecommunication bill. The proceedings show that they are aware that technology can move very fast (thus the law needs to be written as open as possible) and it's hard to precisely differentiate between e.g. phones (or new form of legitimate technology) and dedicated spying devices (thus the law needs to be written as specific as possible). Given those goals I think they made a pretty good job.
  - Radle 9y ago
    Where are you living? Probably not in Germany. It's highly unlikely that anyone carries an active Microphone if they are not actively making a call with their phone.
amatecha 9y ago
Are German laws written in English, or did you find a translation somewhere? I've never looked up German laws before, evidently ;)
- chmod775 9y ago
  There are "official" translations of some laws, but not all of them. In any case they're always only meant as a convenience, the German version obviously being the only source of truth. In this case the sentence is taken from the english version of their press release regarding the cayla dolls: https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilungen/EN/2017/17022017_cayla.html https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilung... A list of translated laws can be found here, but I couldn't find the TKG among them: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/Teilliste_translations.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/Teilliste_translations.ht...
- germanier 9y ago
  German laws are written in German and any translation is bound to miss many important subtleties (even a layperson's reading of the original is going to miss something). I found this translation last time this topic came up here (it was teddy bears with spy cams then). Honestly it's not really good, especially when debating finer details as happens downthread. At least it conveys the basic gist of it.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

donatj 9y ago

It's pretty well known though in this day and age that smart watches can have recording capabilities, so if the problem is that "a watch looks like something that can't record" all smart watches should be banned by that logic. I don't feel like that actually applies here, but if it does it should also apply to the entire smartwatch category.

2112wawa 9y ago
I didn't know that until now.
germanier 9y ago
The devices this is about allow to listen in remotely. I am pretty sure that even many of the wearers (children) don't know that. At least some of those devices don't look like a smartwatch on first glance either, e.g. http://www.eltern-zeit.de/wp-content/uploads/lokato-kidswatch-gps-smart-watch-uhr-e1489949608512.jpg http://www.eltern-zeit.de/wp-content/uploads/lokato-kidswatc...
curun1r 9y ago
> It's pretty well known though in this day and age that smart watches can have recording capabilities This isn't true for hybrid smartwatches and fitness trackers. Those devices don't have listening devices and require tethered cell phones for internet communication, which already enables GPS tracking. It'll be interesting to see if this has been written in such a way as to exclude those or lump them in with the devices being targeted.
Mithaldu 9y ago
In the USA maybe, but german culture in general doesn't track the newest tech as fervently.
- Mithaldu 9y ago
  Goddammit you people are fucking idiots.

gregmac 9y ago

Shouldn't mobile phones also be banned under that definition? Or at least mobile phones "disguised" in your pants pocket or purse.

jrs95 9y ago
At this point it's safe to assume everyone is carrying an active microphone all the time. They ought to update this law to account for that reality.
- germanier 9y ago
  The law in its current form was passed in 2012 and was specifically restricted to devices that have the purpose of spying. We can safely assume that the lawmakers were aware of current technology.
  - sandov 9y ago
    And phones don't have the purpose of spying?
  - jrs95 9y ago
    If Germany lawmakers actually understand this stuff, I'm jealous. American politicians have basically no clue at all.
    - germanier 9y ago
      Certainly not everybody. This law was last changed as a part of a large telecommunication bill. The proceedings show that they are aware that technology can move very fast (thus the law needs to be written as open as possible) and it's hard to precisely differentiate between e.g. phones (or new form of legitimate technology) and dedicated spying devices (thus the law needs to be written as specific as possible). Given those goals I think they made a pretty good job.
- Radle 9y ago
  Where are you living? Probably not in Germany. It's highly unlikely that anyone carries an active Microphone if they are not actively making a call with their phone.

amatecha 9y ago

Are German laws written in English, or did you find a translation somewhere? I've never looked up German laws before, evidently ;)

chmod775 9y ago
There are "official" translations of some laws, but not all of them. In any case they're always only meant as a convenience, the German version obviously being the only source of truth. In this case the sentence is taken from the english version of their press release regarding the cayla dolls: https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilungen/EN/2017/17022017_cayla.html https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilung... A list of translated laws can be found here, but I couldn't find the TKG among them: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/Teilliste_translations.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/Teilliste_translations.ht...
germanier 9y ago
German laws are written in German and any translation is bound to miss many important subtleties (even a layperson's reading of the original is going to miss something). I found this translation last time this topic came up here (it was teddy bears with spy cams then). Honestly it's not really good, especially when debating finer details as happens downthread. At least it conveys the basic gist of it.
deleted 9y ago
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