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Catholicism does not believe that the wine is a symbol. The wine is believed to be the actual blood. This is known as transubstantiation. https://en.m.wikipedi

by dfee 9y ago

Catholicism does not believe that the wine is a symbol. The wine is believed to be the actual blood. This is known as transubstantiation. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation

kakarot 9y ago
My step-grandmother spilled some wine on the alter once at the end of mass and was enthralled by how, in her eyes, it stained the way blood would and not wine. She took that as a sign. People see what they want to see, I guess.
- michaelsbradley 9y ago
  Not to knock your grandmother, but that sounds a bit on the superstitious side, though probably motivated by reverence for the Precious Blood, i.e. the consecrated wine. The Catholic belief is that all the observable properties of the bread and wine remain (the "accidents", philosophical term; in modern terms, its chemical properties and so on) while the "substance" (another philosophical term — think essence, what it truly is objectively) has been changed into the sacred humanity of Jesus Christ. Since his humanity is forever united to his divinity from the time his human nature was conceived in his mother's womb, the "whole Jesus," God himself, is present under what are only the appearances of bread and wine following the consecration. In a hymn[+] attributed to St. Thomas Aquinas, it is explained in this way: "Hidden God, devoutly I adore Thee, truly present underneath these veils... Not to sight, or taste, or touch be credit, hearing only do we trust secure; I believe, for God the Son has said it — Word of truth that ever shall endure. On the cross was veiled Thy Godhead's splendor, here Thy manhood lies hidden too; unto both alike my faith I render." The "God has said it" phrase is in reference to the bread of life discourse in the Gospel of John, chapter 6, as well the Last Supper accounts in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. [+] http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Hymni/AdoroTe.html http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Hymni/AdoroTe.html
  - kakarot 9y ago
    I guess you couldn't tell, but I'm knocking her pretty hard. It's more than a bit superstitious. It's religious. I'm very familiar with the Catholic belief system, I was an unwilling participant in the Catholic church for my entire childhood and have members of the clergy in my family. She wouldn't accept that the wine and bread are believed to remain the same chemically (a cop-out to evade criticism from modern science), and pushing it any further would have invited a punishment or beating, so I let her have it. Like I said, people see what they want to see. As Eckhart Tolle puts it, “Man made God in his own image.”
    - michaelsbradley 9y ago
      Religion is a virtue, classically speaking: "The moral virtue by which a person is disposed to render to God the worship and service he deserves. It is sometimes identified with the virtue of justice toward God, whose rights are rooted in his complete dominion over all creation. Religion is also a composite of all the virtues that arise from a human being's relationship to God as the author of his or her being, even as love is a cluster of all the virtues arising from human response to God as the destiny of his or her being. Religion thus corresponds to the practice of piety toward God as Creator of the universe. (Etym. probably Latin religare, to tie , fasten, bind, or relegere, to gather up, treat with care.)" http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=36024 http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/in... The virtue proper is in many respects the very opposite of superstition; like any virtue, it must be cultivated in a personal and deliberate manner and is ultimately a matter of interior orientation. I'm sorry for your bad experiences and your feeling forced to participate in the Catholic Faith. Many Catholics I know, from very young to very old, love Christ and His Church, and I know more than several who have sacrificed much to become Catholic. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, but just keep in mind that your personal experiences may not encompass the whole reality of the Church.
      - kakarot 9y ago
        You think I haven't heard that one before? I was consistently top of the class in my religious studies and by no coincidence the only one who didn't identify as a Christian. My understanding of the Catholic faith, Abrahamic religions in general, and their pagan origins, stems from a historic and analytic approach to theology and my personal experiences simply reaffirm what I understand the Catholic Church to be. A system of control that operates via moral gatekeeping, social defamation, and historically threats of violence. The Church was the embodiment of anti-science dogma for centuries, the bastion of bloody wars of conquest, and is responsible for destroying the lives of countless individuals to remain in power and stave off any changes to the socioeconomic status quo. The Church you think you support and the Church as it is are two separate things, and you cannot see the forest for the trees when you are in the thick of it. This isn't the kind of discussion the mods like on HN and I don't wish to be chastised, so let's not discuss further.

by dfee 9y ago

kakarot 9y ago

My step-grandmother spilled some wine on the alter once at the end of mass and was enthralled by how, in her eyes, it stained the way blood would and not wine. She took that as a sign. People see what they want to see, I guess.

michaelsbradley 9y ago
Not to knock your grandmother, but that sounds a bit on the superstitious side, though probably motivated by reverence for the Precious Blood, i.e. the consecrated wine. The Catholic belief is that all the observable properties of the bread and wine remain (the "accidents", philosophical term; in modern terms, its chemical properties and so on) while the "substance" (another philosophical term — think essence, what it truly is objectively) has been changed into the sacred humanity of Jesus Christ. Since his humanity is forever united to his divinity from the time his human nature was conceived in his mother's womb, the "whole Jesus," God himself, is present under what are only the appearances of bread and wine following the consecration. In a hymn[+] attributed to St. Thomas Aquinas, it is explained in this way: "Hidden God, devoutly I adore Thee, truly present underneath these veils... Not to sight, or taste, or touch be credit, hearing only do we trust secure; I believe, for God the Son has said it — Word of truth that ever shall endure. On the cross was veiled Thy Godhead's splendor, here Thy manhood lies hidden too; unto both alike my faith I render." The "God has said it" phrase is in reference to the bread of life discourse in the Gospel of John, chapter 6, as well the Last Supper accounts in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. [+] http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Hymni/AdoroTe.html http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Hymni/AdoroTe.html
- kakarot 9y ago
  I guess you couldn't tell, but I'm knocking her pretty hard. It's more than a bit superstitious. It's religious. I'm very familiar with the Catholic belief system, I was an unwilling participant in the Catholic church for my entire childhood and have members of the clergy in my family. She wouldn't accept that the wine and bread are believed to remain the same chemically (a cop-out to evade criticism from modern science), and pushing it any further would have invited a punishment or beating, so I let her have it. Like I said, people see what they want to see. As Eckhart Tolle puts it, “Man made God in his own image.”
  - michaelsbradley 9y ago
    Religion is a virtue, classically speaking: "The moral virtue by which a person is disposed to render to God the worship and service he deserves. It is sometimes identified with the virtue of justice toward God, whose rights are rooted in his complete dominion over all creation. Religion is also a composite of all the virtues that arise from a human being's relationship to God as the author of his or her being, even as love is a cluster of all the virtues arising from human response to God as the destiny of his or her being. Religion thus corresponds to the practice of piety toward God as Creator of the universe. (Etym. probably Latin religare, to tie , fasten, bind, or relegere, to gather up, treat with care.)" http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=36024 http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/in... The virtue proper is in many respects the very opposite of superstition; like any virtue, it must be cultivated in a personal and deliberate manner and is ultimately a matter of interior orientation. I'm sorry for your bad experiences and your feeling forced to participate in the Catholic Faith. Many Catholics I know, from very young to very old, love Christ and His Church, and I know more than several who have sacrificed much to become Catholic. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, but just keep in mind that your personal experiences may not encompass the whole reality of the Church.
    - kakarot 9y ago
      You think I haven't heard that one before? I was consistently top of the class in my religious studies and by no coincidence the only one who didn't identify as a Christian. My understanding of the Catholic faith, Abrahamic religions in general, and their pagan origins, stems from a historic and analytic approach to theology and my personal experiences simply reaffirm what I understand the Catholic Church to be. A system of control that operates via moral gatekeeping, social defamation, and historically threats of violence. The Church was the embodiment of anti-science dogma for centuries, the bastion of bloody wars of conquest, and is responsible for destroying the lives of countless individuals to remain in power and stave off any changes to the socioeconomic status quo. The Church you think you support and the Church as it is are two separate things, and you cannot see the forest for the trees when you are in the thick of it. This isn't the kind of discussion the mods like on HN and I don't wish to be chastised, so let's not discuss further.