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TLDR; 3000 participants study that asked them to do cold showers for 30-90 seconds each day for 1 month. Main difference shown was ~30% reduction in sick days t

TLDR; 3000 participants study that asked them to do cold showers for 30-90 seconds each day for 1 month. Main difference shown was ~30% reduction in sick days they took. On a side note, has anyone here tried wim hof method?

nazgulnarsil 9y ago
inducing hypoxia will make you euphoric but is generally a bad idea for much the same reason that huffing paint thinner is a bad idea.
- jimmydddd 9y ago
  Cautionary note. Don't practice Wim Hof method while in a pool or tub. Tim Ferriss opens a podcast on hof with a warning about a friend who passed out practicing hof method while in a pool and almost drowned.
slap_shot 9y ago
Is it possible that that people who are more willing to tolerate pain and uncomfortable situations are less likely to take sicks days, even when sick? I've trie the wim hof method. It's a pretty incredible feeling but I'm afraid of collapsing and knocking myself out.
- Geojim 9y ago
  I think a better control group would have been a group who had to bash their thumb with a hammer or something....
- abalone 9y ago
  No because this was not a self-selected group. It was people with no regular history of cold showering. My money’s on placebo effect here.
  - SilasX 9y ago
    Right but people would be excluded from the study if they found the cold showers too grueling and wanted out.
- dwg 9y ago
  I've been using cold water at the end of my showers for a while now and it doesn't feel painful or even uncomfortable. Quite the opposite. So, your point may follow but not exactly in the way stated.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- bemmu 9y ago
  Since there was no dose-effect relationship either, I find your idea pretty compelling.
faitswulff 9y ago
Didn't expect them to mention him in the article: > In The Netherlands, there has been an increasing trend for cold bathing over the past few years. Part of this growing popularity is owed to the scientific approach of a health and mindset technique hallmarked by cold-exposure as created by an individual named Wim Hof, nicknamed the Iceman for his ability to remain constant body temperature in extreme cold conditions.[25] These methods involving concentration, breathing and cold-exposure have shown to modulate the immune response.[26] These findings served as inspiration to design the present trial and its popularity facilitated recruitment of over three thousand participants in just one month time. I tried, but honestly I half-assed it because it was both difficult to set up and uncomfortable, so I was unsuccessful in implementing any Wim Hof-like protocol.
abalone 9y ago
Important to note that it did not find any reduction in illness days. Meaning, they examined both whether participants got sick and whether they took the day off from work, and only found a reduction in the latter. “The contrast between the results of both primary outcome parameters is suggestive of the fact that the intensity rather than the duration of symptoms is modulated by the intervention.” My conjecture is this is consistent with a placebo effect. Placebos can make your symptoms feel less severe.
- watwut 9y ago
  It does not imply placebo through. I was recommended cold showers cause I was frequently ill. I seemed to catch everything that went around. For first months, sickness just felt less bad - but that was enough motivation for me to continue. The reduction in sick days started later on. A year later definitely, I had measurable down in sick days. I basically don't need them now. I think sick days started to get better five-seven months after I started, but a year after they were basically non-existent. I also handle cold much better. I need less warm cloth to feel good. Where I was shivering and needed something warm before, I wear t-shirt now and feel good.
  - vidarh 9y ago
    While it is possible that it is more than a placebo, note that nothing you wrote is inconsistent with a placebo effect. If it works for you, great. Doesn't matter if it's a placebo effect or not in that case.
    - watwut 9y ago
      Not being sick after a year is a measurable change, that is unlikely to be placebo. The change is real, even if it would be caused by something else. But, my primary point was meant to be that the results of the study don't imply placebo, through many comments here throw it around a lot. (I am not sure what kind of effect they would want to see through.) They do imply that effects are bound to be very small.
k4ch0w 9y ago
I actually went and met Wim. I took one of his seminars. He had us all go outside into a pool of ice together for about ~1 minute with all of us chanting who let the dogs out while we froze. I walked out completely red because it was the coldest thing I'd ever done. At that point I was doing cold showers for about a year and a half. I am a very physical person and his method was the first one to put my mind into a meditative state. You actually feel it in your body and shock it which silences your regular thoughts. You only focus on your breathing and how you feel in that moment. It gives me a really quick reprieve when working on a difficult problem. You have people that take his method to extremes though, I remember one guy at the seminar literally pissed himself from holding in too long. It can make it all seem like pseudoscience. I can confirm that it has a very physical effect on my body and helps me meditate a lot easier. A side effect of the ice training is that I sweat in really cold weather. I live in Seattle and people look at me funny cause I'm rocking a t-shirt and shorts but if I wear a jacket I'm boiling.
- tomcam 9y ago
  Seattleite here. I am skeptical people look at you funny, at least more than every once in a while. Plenty of people dress that way in inclement weather.
  - k4ch0w 9y ago
    You may be right and it's just how I perceive myself in the world. :-p
    - kilotaras 9y ago
      This is known as spotlight effect[0] - people overestimate how much strangers notice details about you. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spotlight_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spotlight_effect
      - vidarh 9y ago
        This always amuses me, because I'm very quiet and introvert until I get to know people, and people who don't know me sometimes assume this means I'll be anxious in crowds. But in fact, while I don't particularly like crowds, I learned very young that if you don't particularly want to interact with people, crowds are great. I can sit down in the middle of a party and spent 3 hours just observing people mindfully and be content, and most of the time people will ignore it. But you can also act totally outrageous in a crowd, and people will tend to try to ignore you, not pay attention to you until/unless what you do personally affects them. A useful exercise in that respect is to go a day and try to keep a mental count of how often you notice yourself thinking about your own actions vs. how often you notice yourself paying attention to someone elses action, and then at the end of it, try to recall those other peoples actions. Not only will most people find they spend far more time worrying about their own appearance or actions, but that they will have forgotten most of the interactions the noticed with other people even when trying to keep mental tabs of them. Most things that most people do simply isn't that interesting to other people. Heck, most things that most people do isn't that interesting to themselves other than in the moment.
ryankupyn 9y ago
I wonder what the compliance rate was? I've found a cold-shower regimen hard to stick to - effect might actually be larger if there was a way to verify and sort out anyone who was sneaking in a bit of warmth.
- dnautics 9y ago
  It's in the paper, first paragraph.
  - dabber 9y ago
    3rd paragraph actually but yeah: > 79% of participants in the interventions groups completed the 30 consecutive days protocol.
oh_sigh 9y ago
A factor in that might be that people would choose to take their required cold shower in the morning, and being required to do anything in the morning(like take a friends dog for a walk) might lead to an equal reduction of sick days
DavideNL 9y ago
I found this article (it's in Dutch not English) about Wim Hof very... well, interesting: https://www.hetvondelpark.net/Vondelnieuws/DeStuntVanDeIceman https://www.hetvondelpark.net/Vondelnieuws/DeStuntVanDeIcema... TLDR: he put his ass on a water fountain in the middle of a public park to flush his bowel but the pressure was so high that he ended up in the hospital with perforated intestines and nearly died.
- SwellJoe 9y ago
  That's a horrifyingly bad idea for so many reasons. I've always found Wim Hof kinda quacky in general, but this is beyond the stupidity I would expect from even a serious woo practitioner. Even without wrecking your intestines, the bacteria and probable pollutants in a public fountain would be disastrous for your intestinal flora. So, even without the risk of traumatic injury, it'd be really stupid to treat a public fountain as a mega-bidet. Not to mention you're putting others at risk. Kids and pets often play in fountains, even if they aren't supposed to. I really can't even with this dude. And, lots of people, including nerds, take him seriously. It makes no sense.
erasemus 9y ago
Reading these studies nowadays feels like reading horoscopes. Chatty, interesting topics but strictly meaningless without an associated prediction or set of predictions of what will be found. (Predictions derived from theoretical explanations.) Hopefully predictive coding will correct this as we learn that AGIs literally can't see things without learning how to see them first, and therefore neither can we.
mistersquid 9y ago
> Main difference shown was ~30% reduction in sick days they took. That's actually not quite the conclusion. Verbatim: > Repetitive cold showering can modulate the physiological > response.[3] Our findings show that routinely showering > (hot-to-) cold for at least 30 days resulted in a reduction > of self-reported sick leave from work but not illness days > in adults without severe comorbidity. combined with > 79% of participants in the interventions groups completed > the 30 consecutive days protocol. The protocol was randomized exposure to cold showers. Presumably the control group had no recommended exposure to cold showers. So, one explanation might be that the group able to successfully complete the study is a self-selecting group that may have stronger resistance to physical discomfort that they would also take fewer sick leave days despite feeling sick. Whereas, individuals unable to complete the study are not as tolerant of physical discomfort and, so, are more likely to take sick days when feeling sick. I really would like to know what constitutes a control group for this study. To my mind, cold showers and sick days seem likely to be loosely correlated. This study does not seemed designed to determine whether people who take cold showers actually get sick less often than those who take hot showers. EDIT: spelling

nazgulnarsil 9y ago

inducing hypoxia will make you euphoric but is generally a bad idea for much the same reason that huffing paint thinner is a bad idea.

jimmydddd 9y ago
Cautionary note. Don't practice Wim Hof method while in a pool or tub. Tim Ferriss opens a podcast on hof with a warning about a friend who passed out practicing hof method while in a pool and almost drowned.

slap_shot 9y ago

Is it possible that that people who are more willing to tolerate pain and uncomfortable situations are less likely to take sicks days, even when sick? I've trie the wim hof method. It's a pretty incredible feeling but I'm afraid of collapsing and knocking myself out.

Geojim 9y ago
I think a better control group would have been a group who had to bash their thumb with a hammer or something....
abalone 9y ago
No because this was not a self-selected group. It was people with no regular history of cold showering. My money’s on placebo effect here.
- SilasX 9y ago
  Right but people would be excluded from the study if they found the cold showers too grueling and wanted out.
dwg 9y ago
I've been using cold water at the end of my showers for a while now and it doesn't feel painful or even uncomfortable. Quite the opposite. So, your point may follow but not exactly in the way stated.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
bemmu 9y ago
Since there was no dose-effect relationship either, I find your idea pretty compelling.

faitswulff 9y ago

Didn't expect them to mention him in the article: > In The Netherlands, there has been an increasing trend for cold bathing over the past few years. Part of this growing popularity is owed to the scientific approach of a health and mindset technique hallmarked by cold-exposure as created by an individual named Wim Hof, nicknamed the Iceman for his ability to remain constant body temperature in extreme cold conditions.[25] These methods involving concentration, breathing and cold-exposure have shown to modulate the immune response.[26] These findings served as inspiration to design the present trial and its popularity facilitated recruitment of over three thousand participants in just one month time. I tried, but honestly I half-assed it because it was both difficult to set up and uncomfortable, so I was unsuccessful in implementing any Wim Hof-like protocol.

abalone 9y ago

Important to note that it did not find any reduction in illness days. Meaning, they examined both whether participants got sick and whether they took the day off from work, and only found a reduction in the latter. “The contrast between the results of both primary outcome parameters is suggestive of the fact that the intensity rather than the duration of symptoms is modulated by the intervention.” My conjecture is this is consistent with a placebo effect. Placebos can make your symptoms feel less severe.

watwut 9y ago
It does not imply placebo through. I was recommended cold showers cause I was frequently ill. I seemed to catch everything that went around. For first months, sickness just felt less bad - but that was enough motivation for me to continue. The reduction in sick days started later on. A year later definitely, I had measurable down in sick days. I basically don't need them now. I think sick days started to get better five-seven months after I started, but a year after they were basically non-existent. I also handle cold much better. I need less warm cloth to feel good. Where I was shivering and needed something warm before, I wear t-shirt now and feel good.
- vidarh 9y ago
  While it is possible that it is more than a placebo, note that nothing you wrote is inconsistent with a placebo effect. If it works for you, great. Doesn't matter if it's a placebo effect or not in that case.
  - watwut 9y ago
    Not being sick after a year is a measurable change, that is unlikely to be placebo. The change is real, even if it would be caused by something else. But, my primary point was meant to be that the results of the study don't imply placebo, through many comments here throw it around a lot. (I am not sure what kind of effect they would want to see through.) They do imply that effects are bound to be very small.

k4ch0w 9y ago

I actually went and met Wim. I took one of his seminars. He had us all go outside into a pool of ice together for about ~1 minute with all of us chanting who let the dogs out while we froze. I walked out completely red because it was the coldest thing I'd ever done. At that point I was doing cold showers for about a year and a half. I am a very physical person and his method was the first one to put my mind into a meditative state. You actually feel it in your body and shock it which silences your regular thoughts. You only focus on your breathing and how you feel in that moment. It gives me a really quick reprieve when working on a difficult problem. You have people that take his method to extremes though, I remember one guy at the seminar literally pissed himself from holding in too long. It can make it all seem like pseudoscience. I can confirm that it has a very physical effect on my body and helps me meditate a lot easier. A side effect of the ice training is that I sweat in really cold weather. I live in Seattle and people look at me funny cause I'm rocking a t-shirt and shorts but if I wear a jacket I'm boiling.

tomcam 9y ago
Seattleite here. I am skeptical people look at you funny, at least more than every once in a while. Plenty of people dress that way in inclement weather.
- k4ch0w 9y ago
  You may be right and it's just how I perceive myself in the world. :-p
  - kilotaras 9y ago
    This is known as spotlight effect[0] - people overestimate how much strangers notice details about you. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spotlight_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spotlight_effect
    - vidarh 9y ago
      This always amuses me, because I'm very quiet and introvert until I get to know people, and people who don't know me sometimes assume this means I'll be anxious in crowds. But in fact, while I don't particularly like crowds, I learned very young that if you don't particularly want to interact with people, crowds are great. I can sit down in the middle of a party and spent 3 hours just observing people mindfully and be content, and most of the time people will ignore it. But you can also act totally outrageous in a crowd, and people will tend to try to ignore you, not pay attention to you until/unless what you do personally affects them. A useful exercise in that respect is to go a day and try to keep a mental count of how often you notice yourself thinking about your own actions vs. how often you notice yourself paying attention to someone elses action, and then at the end of it, try to recall those other peoples actions. Not only will most people find they spend far more time worrying about their own appearance or actions, but that they will have forgotten most of the interactions the noticed with other people even when trying to keep mental tabs of them. Most things that most people do simply isn't that interesting to other people. Heck, most things that most people do isn't that interesting to themselves other than in the moment.

ryankupyn 9y ago

I wonder what the compliance rate was? I've found a cold-shower regimen hard to stick to - effect might actually be larger if there was a way to verify and sort out anyone who was sneaking in a bit of warmth.

dnautics 9y ago
It's in the paper, first paragraph.
- dabber 9y ago
  3rd paragraph actually but yeah: > 79% of participants in the interventions groups completed the 30 consecutive days protocol.

oh_sigh 9y ago

A factor in that might be that people would choose to take their required cold shower in the morning, and being required to do anything in the morning(like take a friends dog for a walk) might lead to an equal reduction of sick days

DavideNL 9y ago

I found this article (it's in Dutch not English) about Wim Hof very... well, interesting: https://www.hetvondelpark.net/Vondelnieuws/DeStuntVanDeIceman https://www.hetvondelpark.net/Vondelnieuws/DeStuntVanDeIcema... TLDR: he put his ass on a water fountain in the middle of a public park to flush his bowel but the pressure was so high that he ended up in the hospital with perforated intestines and nearly died.

SwellJoe 9y ago
That's a horrifyingly bad idea for so many reasons. I've always found Wim Hof kinda quacky in general, but this is beyond the stupidity I would expect from even a serious woo practitioner. Even without wrecking your intestines, the bacteria and probable pollutants in a public fountain would be disastrous for your intestinal flora. So, even without the risk of traumatic injury, it'd be really stupid to treat a public fountain as a mega-bidet. Not to mention you're putting others at risk. Kids and pets often play in fountains, even if they aren't supposed to. I really can't even with this dude. And, lots of people, including nerds, take him seriously. It makes no sense.

erasemus 9y ago

Reading these studies nowadays feels like reading horoscopes. Chatty, interesting topics but strictly meaningless without an associated prediction or set of predictions of what will be found. (Predictions derived from theoretical explanations.) Hopefully predictive coding will correct this as we learn that AGIs literally can't see things without learning how to see them first, and therefore neither can we.

mistersquid 9y ago

> Main difference shown was ~30% reduction in sick days they took. That's actually not quite the conclusion. Verbatim: > Repetitive cold showering can modulate the physiological > response.[3] Our findings show that routinely showering > (hot-to-) cold for at least 30 days resulted in a reduction > of self-reported sick leave from work but not illness days > in adults without severe comorbidity. combined with > 79% of participants in the interventions groups completed > the 30 consecutive days protocol. The protocol was randomized exposure to cold showers. Presumably the control group had no recommended exposure to cold showers. So, one explanation might be that the group able to successfully complete the study is a self-selecting group that may have stronger resistance to physical discomfort that they would also take fewer sick leave days despite feeling sick. Whereas, individuals unable to complete the study are not as tolerant of physical discomfort and, so, are more likely to take sick days when feeling sick. I really would like to know what constitutes a control group for this study. To my mind, cold showers and sick days seem likely to be loosely correlated. This study does not seemed designed to determine whether people who take cold showers actually get sick less often than those who take hot showers. EDIT: spelling