6 ms·

Reach Out and Touch Faith

52 points by Vigier 9y ago

trhway 9y ago
i think these relics and the likes can make one see the side of the argument that the Church has a lot of idolatry going while the Church applies a lot of theological argument trying to explain the difference between their practices and the idolatry. Looks like Luther wasn't much impressed by it :) Reminded about talking to some people in Mexico who explained to me that from some point of view there is not that much difference between the human sacrifice as was practiced by say Aztecs there and the human sacrifice performed upon Jesus.
- jabretti 9y ago
  For the most part, as in this case, it seems like idolatry tends to emerge from the bottom up rather than being decreed from the top down. The Pope and Cardinals would really prefer it if people would pray to a nice abstract God in a nice abstract sort of way, but superstitious common people really want to be able to have a nice neat physical object that they can entreat for the safe return of car keys and the like, and these two streams reach an uneasy compromise at the local priest's level.
  - chewz 9y ago
    I am Polish. In 1984 young priest had been kidnapped, tortured and murdered by communist political police. The Church made him beatified and a martyr in 2010. [^1] Additionally they have exhumated his body and cut pieces for reliquaries. Recently retired bishop of Cracov[^2] and former personal sectretary of Polish Pope Jan Paul II keeps a vial with blood of Jan Paul II (taken from his body on a deathbed) and used that as source of influence. It all happens in XXI century and by people who are the top of hierarchy of Catholic Church in Poland. So this idolatory is deeply rooted at highest level of hierachy. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Popiełuszko https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Popiełuszko [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Dziwisz https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Dziwisz
    - kakarot 9y ago
      Symbolism is a powerful thing, isn't it? It holds all the power in our lives, bestowing meaning upon one thing and withholding it from another. I certainly don't mean to justify modern organized religion, but it seems without a strong sense of symbolism and a bit of superstition to hold it in place, it's hard to get anyone to subscribe to your cause. We see this kind of dramatic rhetoric everywhere we turn as people vie for our attention and support, irrespective of the organization. How are we supposed to protect the masses from such a profound system of control without engaging in symbolic gestures ourselves?
      - trhway 9y ago
        symbolism is the wine symbolizing the blood of Christ or say wearing a cross symbolizing the Crucifixion. A piece of wood or a nail which were supposedly taken from the real Crusifixion - this is pure idolatry. Ditto for the blood of a former Pope, pieces of body, etc.
        dfee 9y ago
        Catholicism does not believe that the wine is a symbol. The wine is believed to be the actual blood. This is known as transubstantiation. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation
        kakarot 9y ago
        My step-grandmother spilled some wine on the alter once at the end of mass and was enthralled by how, in her eyes, it stained the way blood would and not wine. She took that as a sign. People see what they want to see, I guess.
        michaelsbradley 9y ago
        Not to knock your grandmother, but that sounds a bit on the superstitious side, though probably motivated by reverence for the Precious Blood, i.e. the consecrated wine. The Catholic belief is that all the observable properties of the bread and wine remain (the "accidents", philosophical term; in modern terms, its chemical properties and so on) while the "substance" (another philosophical term — think essence, what it truly is objectively) has been changed into the sacred humanity of Jesus Christ. Since his humanity is forever united to his divinity from the time his human nature was conceived in his mother's womb, the "whole Jesus," God himself, is present under what are only the appearances of bread and wine following the consecration. In a hymn[+] attributed to St. Thomas Aquinas, it is explained in this way: "Hidden God, devoutly I adore Thee, truly present underneath these veils... Not to sight, or taste, or touch be credit, hearing only do we trust secure; I believe, for God the Son has said it — Word of truth that ever shall endure. On the cross was veiled Thy Godhead's splendor, here Thy manhood lies hidden too; unto both alike my faith I render." The "God has said it" phrase is in reference to the bread of life discourse in the Gospel of John, chapter 6, as well the Last Supper accounts in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. [+] http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Hymni/AdoroTe.html http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Hymni/AdoroTe.html
  - trhway 9y ago
    >The Pope and Cardinals would really prefer it if people would pray to a nice abstract God in a nice abstract sort of way Doesn't seem so. As far as we can see, the Church all this time has been actively encouraging and cultivating people's superstitions and the lowest emotions like fear, xenophobia, etc. and exploiting it for power and monetization.
    - pls2halp 9y ago
      I don’t think you’re speaking about “The Church” in the sense of the Roman Catholic Church. Lots of televangelists and other protestants sure, but The Catholic Church has never strongly pushed monetisation, and tends to have the lowest reimbursement rates for priests.
      - trhway 9y ago
        >The Catholic Church has never strongly pushed monetisation i'm kind of lost where to start. How about selling indulgences for example?
        beojan 9y ago
        Fine, the modern, post Vatican II, Catholic Church. NB: Not the person you replied to.
        baddox 9y ago
        What about, say, from the 20th century to now? What are the Roman Catholic Church’s current methods for monetization? I presume they teach all parishioners to give tithes and offerings (which is pretty straightforward from the scriptures), but is there any monitoring of each individual’s givings or pressure toward individuals who don’t give? I grew up in the 90s in small-town middle America in a mainstream conservative Protestant church, and as far as I know there was never any such individual monitoring or pressure, so I have presumed (based on no data or even anecdata) that the Roman Catholic Church is generally similar.
        9y ago

52 points by Vigier 9y ago

i think these relics and the likes can make one see the side of the argument that the Church has a lot of idolatry going while the Church applies a lot of theological argument trying to explain the difference between their practices and the idolatry. Looks like Luther wasn't much impressed by it :) Reminded about talking to some people in Mexico who explained to me that from some point of view there is not that much difference between the human sacrifice as was practiced by say Aztecs there and the human sacrifice performed upon Jesus.

jabretti 9y ago
For the most part, as in this case, it seems like idolatry tends to emerge from the bottom up rather than being decreed from the top down. The Pope and Cardinals would really prefer it if people would pray to a nice abstract God in a nice abstract sort of way, but superstitious common people really want to be able to have a nice neat physical object that they can entreat for the safe return of car keys and the like, and these two streams reach an uneasy compromise at the local priest's level.
- chewz 9y ago
  I am Polish. In 1984 young priest had been kidnapped, tortured and murdered by communist political police. The Church made him beatified and a martyr in 2010. [^1] Additionally they have exhumated his body and cut pieces for reliquaries. Recently retired bishop of Cracov[^2] and former personal sectretary of Polish Pope Jan Paul II keeps a vial with blood of Jan Paul II (taken from his body on a deathbed) and used that as source of influence. It all happens in XXI century and by people who are the top of hierarchy of Catholic Church in Poland. So this idolatory is deeply rooted at highest level of hierachy. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Popiełuszko https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Popiełuszko [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Dziwisz https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Dziwisz
  - kakarot 9y ago
    Symbolism is a powerful thing, isn't it? It holds all the power in our lives, bestowing meaning upon one thing and withholding it from another. I certainly don't mean to justify modern organized religion, but it seems without a strong sense of symbolism and a bit of superstition to hold it in place, it's hard to get anyone to subscribe to your cause. We see this kind of dramatic rhetoric everywhere we turn as people vie for our attention and support, irrespective of the organization. How are we supposed to protect the masses from such a profound system of control without engaging in symbolic gestures ourselves?
    - trhway 9y ago
      symbolism is the wine symbolizing the blood of Christ or say wearing a cross symbolizing the Crucifixion. A piece of wood or a nail which were supposedly taken from the real Crusifixion - this is pure idolatry. Ditto for the blood of a former Pope, pieces of body, etc.
      - dfee 9y ago
        Catholicism does not believe that the wine is a symbol. The wine is believed to be the actual blood. This is known as transubstantiation. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation
        kakarot 9y ago
        My step-grandmother spilled some wine on the alter once at the end of mass and was enthralled by how, in her eyes, it stained the way blood would and not wine. She took that as a sign. People see what they want to see, I guess.
        michaelsbradley 9y ago
        Not to knock your grandmother, but that sounds a bit on the superstitious side, though probably motivated by reverence for the Precious Blood, i.e. the consecrated wine. The Catholic belief is that all the observable properties of the bread and wine remain (the "accidents", philosophical term; in modern terms, its chemical properties and so on) while the "substance" (another philosophical term — think essence, what it truly is objectively) has been changed into the sacred humanity of Jesus Christ. Since his humanity is forever united to his divinity from the time his human nature was conceived in his mother's womb, the "whole Jesus," God himself, is present under what are only the appearances of bread and wine following the consecration. In a hymn[+] attributed to St. Thomas Aquinas, it is explained in this way: "Hidden God, devoutly I adore Thee, truly present underneath these veils... Not to sight, or taste, or touch be credit, hearing only do we trust secure; I believe, for God the Son has said it — Word of truth that ever shall endure. On the cross was veiled Thy Godhead's splendor, here Thy manhood lies hidden too; unto both alike my faith I render." The "God has said it" phrase is in reference to the bread of life discourse in the Gospel of John, chapter 6, as well the Last Supper accounts in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. [+] http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Hymni/AdoroTe.html http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Hymni/AdoroTe.html
- trhway 9y ago
  >The Pope and Cardinals would really prefer it if people would pray to a nice abstract God in a nice abstract sort of way Doesn't seem so. As far as we can see, the Church all this time has been actively encouraging and cultivating people's superstitions and the lowest emotions like fear, xenophobia, etc. and exploiting it for power and monetization.
  - pls2halp 9y ago
    I don’t think you’re speaking about “The Church” in the sense of the Roman Catholic Church. Lots of televangelists and other protestants sure, but The Catholic Church has never strongly pushed monetisation, and tends to have the lowest reimbursement rates for priests.
    - trhway 9y ago
      >The Catholic Church has never strongly pushed monetisation i'm kind of lost where to start. How about selling indulgences for example?
      - beojan 9y ago
        Fine, the modern, post Vatican II, Catholic Church. NB: Not the person you replied to.
      - baddox 9y ago
        What about, say, from the 20th century to now? What are the Roman Catholic Church’s current methods for monetization? I presume they teach all parishioners to give tithes and offerings (which is pretty straightforward from the scriptures), but is there any monitoring of each individual’s givings or pressure toward individuals who don’t give? I grew up in the 90s in small-town middle America in a mainstream conservative Protestant church, and as far as I know there was never any such individual monitoring or pressure, so I have presumed (based on no data or even anecdata) that the Roman Catholic Church is generally similar.
        9y ago