5 ms·

I always find it unbelievable that they let these kinds of hierarchies arise in prisons, especially in American prisons (from what I've heard, European prisons

I always find it unbelievable that they let these kinds of hierarchies arise in prisons, especially in American prisons (from what I've heard, European prisons have it too, but to a much lesser degree). Someone told me they allow it on purpose to help keep order. Maybe it is also a consequence of overfull, understaffed prisons. It's probably naive, but one thing I would do if I was in charge would be to aggressively break up any kind of hierarchy or authority among inmates - not least to prevent prison from turning into a "crime school". Edit: some people suggest these gangs arise due to the size of prisons and the large inflow of new inmates [1], whereas in the old days (-1950s) prison used to organize itself according to some kind of convict code. [1]: https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2015/05/end-prison-gangs-break-largest-prisons-000034 https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2015/05/end-prison-gan...

andresgottlieb 9y ago
You might find this article (1956) interesting: http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4422&context=jclc http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent...
lightbyte 9y ago
>I always find it unbelievable that they let these kinds of hierarchies arise in prisons, especially in American prisons (from what I've heard, European prisons have it too, but to a much lesser degree). Someone told me they allow it on purpose to help keep order. Maybe it is also a consequence of overfull, understaffed prisons. A few years back I took a tour of the main prison in Amsterdam. The warden actually talked about this and said they specifically organize their prisoners into as diverse blocks as possible to avoid any sort of gangs/groupings from starting. He claimed it made the prison significantly safer, as everyone was looking out for only their own wellbeing. The prison was safe enough for us to walk around among the prisoners (who were not cuffed or restrained in anyway), so I think it was working quite well for them.
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > The warden actually talked about this and said they specifically organize their prisoners into as diverse blocks as possible to avoid any sort of gangs/groupings from starting. He claimed it made the prison significantly safer, as everyone was looking out for only their own wellbeing. The prison was safe enough for us to walk around among the prisoners (who were not cuffed or restrained in anyway), so I think it was working quite well for them. I'd be careful reading too much into that. Wardens in the US would say the exact same thing; the actual effects of it obviously don't bear out. As for being handcuffed or restrained: in most prisons in the US, prisoners generally aren't actually cuffed or restrained unless they're being punished.
  - lightbyte 9y ago
    >in most prisons in the US, prisoners generally aren't actually cuffed or restrained unless they're being punished. Maybe I wasn't very clear, this was while we were walking around among them and talking with the prisoners. I don't think any US prisons would allow students (this was for a study abroad class) to walk among and interact with unrestrained prisoners for safety reasons.
    - chimeracoder 9y ago
      > I don't think any US prisons would allow students (this was for a study abroad class) to walk among and interact with unrestrained prisoners for safety reasons. No, they definitely do.
      - ficklepickle 9y ago
        My impression is that in the USA, they like to try to "scare em straight" by having guards and inmates terrorize troubled children, compounding their trauma and all but guaranteeing they end up in prison later.
wallace_f 9y ago
>It's probably naive [...] not least to prevent prison from turning into a "crime school". I am very confident the type of people working in SV could make a huge impact, if only running prisons was like software development. But the goal of US prison is not to solve difficult problems. It is simply to benefit the US prison-police-state-complex. The other problem is it would be like when designing, your functions, or people, don't do what they're supposed to do and have a mind of their own. For example, an HBO documentary on death row inmate Troy Kell noted he was being punished for heroin overdose[1]. Thing is, he is in solitary. How does a guy in solitary become a heroin addict? Well, like the article mentioned, the drugs come in through the guards. Sometimes this, and things like Abu Ghraib, the Stanford Prison Experiment and regular police killings make me wonder if the authorities here are any better than the guys inside. 1 - https://youtu.be/UEl7zsOE2Sk https://youtu.be/UEl7zsOE2Sk
- kbenson 9y ago
  > I am very confident the type of people working in SV could make a huge impact, if only running prisons was like software development. > But the goal of US prison is not to solve difficult problems. It is simply to benefit the US prison-police-state-complex. See, that's why they couldn't make a real impact. The whole system is set up with the wrong incentives. From the SV/startup perspective, it's like one of your suppliers being the nephew of your biggest investor and a stipulation of the investment. Sucks to be you if they do a shitty job and cost you money, or make it hard to achieve goals. They know they have leverage over you, so you're stuck. Prisons could kill large amounts of people that enter them, and release people as sexually molested PTSD wrecks that have little normal economic recourse and new ideas and connections about how to make money in extra-legal ways, and society still wouldn't care enough to change things. This is obvious, because that's what prisons do in the U.S. and we haven't changed jack-shit. I don't have high hopes for change. A decade ago there was a lot of media attention and articles about how California used to be the shining example of the U.S. prison system (in the 1970's), with extremely low recidivism rates, and inmates leaving prison with a skill or craft they learned inside and able to find gainful employment. Nothing came from it during two terms of a Democrat president after that, I doubt we'll get change from a Republican one now, especially with his particular rhetoric on crime. Until we as a society get past "Justice == punishment" and focus quite a bit on rehabilitation, we're cutting off our nose to spite out face.
chimeracoder 9y ago
> from what I've heard, European prisons have it too, but to a much lesser degree That's definitely not the case for prisons in France.
- Danihan 9y ago
  France doesn't have it or France has it worse?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - chimeracoder 9y ago
    > France doesn't have it or France has it worse? France definitely is not better than the US in this regard.
wonderwonder 9y ago
Unfortunately our prison systems are not designed for rehabilitation but rather for profit, control and punishment. The fact that prisons are underfunded to the point that rape and assault are taken for granted is a disappointing statement on our society and value for human life. Controlling the gangs would require an investment in policing and education, something the prison industry and our politicians are in no way prepared to do. When a person is sent to prison they are essentially remanded to the state and the state should bear any and all responsibility to ensure their safety. People in authority, especially the prison staff should be held personally liable for this. They are not except in extreme cases and then only rarely. Prisons are treated as a means to simply house and profit from society's dregs and in many cases its most vulnerable. In addition these troubled, and oft petty criminals are trapped with the most violent. How someone is expected to emerge from prison and become a productive member of the society that put them there is beyond me.

andresgottlieb 9y ago

You might find this article (1956) interesting: http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4422&context=jclc http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent...

lightbyte 9y ago

>I always find it unbelievable that they let these kinds of hierarchies arise in prisons, especially in American prisons (from what I've heard, European prisons have it too, but to a much lesser degree). Someone told me they allow it on purpose to help keep order. Maybe it is also a consequence of overfull, understaffed prisons. A few years back I took a tour of the main prison in Amsterdam. The warden actually talked about this and said they specifically organize their prisoners into as diverse blocks as possible to avoid any sort of gangs/groupings from starting. He claimed it made the prison significantly safer, as everyone was looking out for only their own wellbeing. The prison was safe enough for us to walk around among the prisoners (who were not cuffed or restrained in anyway), so I think it was working quite well for them.

chimeracoder 9y ago
> The warden actually talked about this and said they specifically organize their prisoners into as diverse blocks as possible to avoid any sort of gangs/groupings from starting. He claimed it made the prison significantly safer, as everyone was looking out for only their own wellbeing. The prison was safe enough for us to walk around among the prisoners (who were not cuffed or restrained in anyway), so I think it was working quite well for them. I'd be careful reading too much into that. Wardens in the US would say the exact same thing; the actual effects of it obviously don't bear out. As for being handcuffed or restrained: in most prisons in the US, prisoners generally aren't actually cuffed or restrained unless they're being punished.
- lightbyte 9y ago
  >in most prisons in the US, prisoners generally aren't actually cuffed or restrained unless they're being punished. Maybe I wasn't very clear, this was while we were walking around among them and talking with the prisoners. I don't think any US prisons would allow students (this was for a study abroad class) to walk among and interact with unrestrained prisoners for safety reasons.
  - chimeracoder 9y ago
    > I don't think any US prisons would allow students (this was for a study abroad class) to walk among and interact with unrestrained prisoners for safety reasons. No, they definitely do.
    - ficklepickle 9y ago
      My impression is that in the USA, they like to try to "scare em straight" by having guards and inmates terrorize troubled children, compounding their trauma and all but guaranteeing they end up in prison later.

wallace_f 9y ago

>It's probably naive [...] not least to prevent prison from turning into a "crime school". I am very confident the type of people working in SV could make a huge impact, if only running prisons was like software development. But the goal of US prison is not to solve difficult problems. It is simply to benefit the US prison-police-state-complex. The other problem is it would be like when designing, your functions, or people, don't do what they're supposed to do and have a mind of their own. For example, an HBO documentary on death row inmate Troy Kell noted he was being punished for heroin overdose[1]. Thing is, he is in solitary. How does a guy in solitary become a heroin addict? Well, like the article mentioned, the drugs come in through the guards. Sometimes this, and things like Abu Ghraib, the Stanford Prison Experiment and regular police killings make me wonder if the authorities here are any better than the guys inside. 1 - https://youtu.be/UEl7zsOE2Sk https://youtu.be/UEl7zsOE2Sk

kbenson 9y ago
> I am very confident the type of people working in SV could make a huge impact, if only running prisons was like software development. > But the goal of US prison is not to solve difficult problems. It is simply to benefit the US prison-police-state-complex. See, that's why they couldn't make a real impact. The whole system is set up with the wrong incentives. From the SV/startup perspective, it's like one of your suppliers being the nephew of your biggest investor and a stipulation of the investment. Sucks to be you if they do a shitty job and cost you money, or make it hard to achieve goals. They know they have leverage over you, so you're stuck. Prisons could kill large amounts of people that enter them, and release people as sexually molested PTSD wrecks that have little normal economic recourse and new ideas and connections about how to make money in extra-legal ways, and society still wouldn't care enough to change things. This is obvious, because that's what prisons do in the U.S. and we haven't changed jack-shit. I don't have high hopes for change. A decade ago there was a lot of media attention and articles about how California used to be the shining example of the U.S. prison system (in the 1970's), with extremely low recidivism rates, and inmates leaving prison with a skill or craft they learned inside and able to find gainful employment. Nothing came from it during two terms of a Democrat president after that, I doubt we'll get change from a Republican one now, especially with his particular rhetoric on crime. Until we as a society get past "Justice == punishment" and focus quite a bit on rehabilitation, we're cutting off our nose to spite out face.

chimeracoder 9y ago

> from what I've heard, European prisons have it too, but to a much lesser degree That's definitely not the case for prisons in France.

Danihan 9y ago
France doesn't have it or France has it worse?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > France doesn't have it or France has it worse? France definitely is not better than the US in this regard.

wonderwonder 9y ago

Unfortunately our prison systems are not designed for rehabilitation but rather for profit, control and punishment. The fact that prisons are underfunded to the point that rape and assault are taken for granted is a disappointing statement on our society and value for human life. Controlling the gangs would require an investment in policing and education, something the prison industry and our politicians are in no way prepared to do. When a person is sent to prison they are essentially remanded to the state and the state should bear any and all responsibility to ensure their safety. People in authority, especially the prison staff should be held personally liable for this. They are not except in extreme cases and then only rarely. Prisons are treated as a means to simply house and profit from society's dregs and in many cases its most vulnerable. In addition these troubled, and oft petty criminals are trapped with the most violent. How someone is expected to emerge from prison and become a productive member of the society that put them there is beyond me.