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>Does anyone have suggestions on how to fix this? One option would be to have the cultures integrate so there are not sub communities for PoC. This doesn't seem

>Does anyone have suggestions on how to fix this? One option would be to have the cultures integrate so there are not sub communities for PoC. This doesn't seem to have worked. But the other option is that you expect Midwesterners to treat people from outside their community the same as people inside their community. That isn't going to happen. So it seems like it is an impossible situation. From my outside perspective, this is bloody ridiculous. I live in a coastal metro, and routinely expect to encounter people from "cultures" more than a few towns over. Bostonians would laugh at you if you treat someone from Medford differently from someone from Milton. They'd nod if you treat Medford different from Malden, but that's because Medford is white-ethnic while Malden is black and Chinese -- they're just being racist and everyone knows it. Let alone if you tried treating Medford different from Somerville! I mean, hell, what's next, holding up signs on the Common saying, "Californians go home"? Worse, by my tastes, Bostonians are already a bunch of provincial chauvinists. I'm from New York. In New York, if you said that a Park Slope-er in Brooklyn just has a different culture from a native of Flushing, Queens, well, you're going to get somewhere between dirty looks and threats (I'm picking where my parents had me versus where my mother grew up). It's got too many ethnic and racial implications. Hell, you're expected to work every day with people commuting in from as "far away" as New Jersey, and we all know that New Jerseyians are degenerate douchebags with no culture, amirite? (Yeah I grew up in New Jersey too.) I mean, let alone talking about "where you go to church" in New York. If you can't cope with Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Evangelicals, and Catholics (of various ethnicities each) living in the same neighborhood and each having their houses of worship within a few blocks of each-other, look, don't move to New York. So the protestation that Midwesterners just have to draw ingroup/outgroup distinctions about your particular church, neighborhood, school district, and choice of automobile comes across as yuuuuge levels of special pleading to justify levels of xenophobia that we'd think of as the stuff of stand-up comedy.

mcguire 9y ago
So, you are arguing that New Yorkers don't make a distinction between themselves and not-New Yorkers? I've never lived in New York; what about all those sitcom references to the differences between Manhattenites and Brooklyners? Or the Bronx? How can I, as a random Texan, tell the difference between someone from Gramercy Park and someone from New Jersey? (The part of me that wants to watch the world burn would like to see the flames between Bostonians and New Yorkers.)
- eli_gottlieb 9y ago
  We don't really make distinctions between fellow New Yorkers based on the kinds of tiny differences described. Our distribution has much more variance, so we need to go "further out" before we actually care. Like, New Jerseyans think New Yorkers are snobby, New Yorkers think New Jerseyans are sleazy and uncultured, but you'd never, ever expect people to have a problem working or living together because of the difference. Everyone is so mixed-up that "stick to your own kind" becomes nearly impossible. Saying that we live in the same neighborhood and send our kids to the same school, say, but attend a different church, and so we're not really members of a common community, would just not make sense. If you tried that, you'd run out of "people like us" in about five minutes.
  - JamesBarney 9y ago
    Being willing to work together is a low bar for discrimination. A lower bar would be more likely to hire someone with equivalent credentials. I imagine if you looked into it, New Yorkers would be much more likely to hire a New Yorkers over a New Jerseyan with similar credentials.
    - lloyd-christmas 9y ago
      I sincerely doubt that. New Jersey is just a suburb of NY along with Westchester, Nassau, and Fairfield, CT.
      - JamesBarney 9y ago
        I know what New Jersey is :). But there are large cultural differences between urbanites and suburbanites. And I imagine this has influence on hiring.
        lloyd-christmas 9y ago
        > But there are large cultural differences between urbanites and suburbanites. Globally, yes, but these suburbs are different because many of these people have lived in the city. NYC has fantastic commuter transportation. People move to manhattan for a job, get married, have a kid, move to the suburbs, and continue to work in manhattan. Their children grow up going to the city on the weekends and move there when they graduate college. The manhattan population is 1.6m, but on any given weekday there are 4m people on the island. 750k people go through grand central every day (Westchester/Fairfield), Penn station another 300k (Long Island). The PATH has another 200k (New Jersey). This is all while excluding the drivers. > I imagine this has influence on hiring. I'm not sure how I could convince you, but I've lived here my entire life. There is absolutely no difference between people in the suburbs and in the city because they are the same people.
torstenvl 9y ago
You can think something is ridiculous all you want, but that doesn't make it inaccurate. You feel it's all a proxy for racism? Fine. Tell me, then: between an F-150 and a Silverado, which one is the "white" truck?
- eli_gottlieb 9y ago
  I don't think it's a proxy for racism. I think it's its own form of xenophobia. I don't care which one is the "white" truck, I care that someone's drawing major social distinctions on the difference between one truck and another.
  - stillsut 9y ago
    Well if the truck is your work then obviously people are going to draw distinctions over it. Which operating system shows you're smart: Windows or Linux? Is it "xenophobic" to prefer linux people? Also, Milton "ked" here. Of course I'd treat somebody from Milton differently, we share a whole unique culture which you clearly don't understand. You're the one being culturally ignorant: speaking of Milton and Medford as equivalent because of skin tone is the same as comparing a Sikh to Arab, cause you know, the funny hat and facial hair and stuff right?
    - eli_gottlieb 9y ago
      >Also, Milton "ked" here. Of course I'd treat somebody from Milton differently, we share a whole unique culture which you clearly don't understand. You're the one being culturally ignorant: speaking of Milton and Medford as equivalent because of skin tone is the same as comparing a Sikh to Arab, cause you know, the funny hat and facial hair and stuff right? My wife is from Milton. She has nothing but nasty things to say about its "whole unique culture" ;-).
- EADGBE 9y ago
  I commented above about car culture here vs other parts of the US which tend to have better transportation or locality options. (Forget truck culture). It's one of only a few things I've found a lot of non-Midwesterns don't get. And honestly, it probably is pretty ridiculous. But when housing is affordable, high-paying jobs are abundant, and schools overall are great; the car becomes the deciding factor, as the square footage of a mansion and a historic bungalow aren't really reflected in their prices differences. I'd guess the Silverado. However, really the comparison between Silverado and F-150 really has to do with the color of your collar; not the color of your skin.
EADGBE 9y ago
> and choice of automobile comes across as yuuuuge levels of special pleading to justify levels of xenophobia that we'd think of as the stuff of stand-up comedy. I assume by the italics you really think that part's ridiculous. But car culture here is very, very different than other parts of the US where public transportation or locality makes them unimportant.

mcguire 9y ago

So, you are arguing that New Yorkers don't make a distinction between themselves and not-New Yorkers? I've never lived in New York; what about all those sitcom references to the differences between Manhattenites and Brooklyners? Or the Bronx? How can I, as a random Texan, tell the difference between someone from Gramercy Park and someone from New Jersey? (The part of me that wants to watch the world burn would like to see the flames between Bostonians and New Yorkers.)

eli_gottlieb 9y ago
We don't really make distinctions between fellow New Yorkers based on the kinds of tiny differences described. Our distribution has much more variance, so we need to go "further out" before we actually care. Like, New Jerseyans think New Yorkers are snobby, New Yorkers think New Jerseyans are sleazy and uncultured, but you'd never, ever expect people to have a problem working or living together because of the difference. Everyone is so mixed-up that "stick to your own kind" becomes nearly impossible. Saying that we live in the same neighborhood and send our kids to the same school, say, but attend a different church, and so we're not really members of a common community, would just not make sense. If you tried that, you'd run out of "people like us" in about five minutes.
- JamesBarney 9y ago
  Being willing to work together is a low bar for discrimination. A lower bar would be more likely to hire someone with equivalent credentials. I imagine if you looked into it, New Yorkers would be much more likely to hire a New Yorkers over a New Jerseyan with similar credentials.
  - lloyd-christmas 9y ago
    I sincerely doubt that. New Jersey is just a suburb of NY along with Westchester, Nassau, and Fairfield, CT.
    - JamesBarney 9y ago
      I know what New Jersey is :). But there are large cultural differences between urbanites and suburbanites. And I imagine this has influence on hiring.
      - lloyd-christmas 9y ago
        > But there are large cultural differences between urbanites and suburbanites. Globally, yes, but these suburbs are different because many of these people have lived in the city. NYC has fantastic commuter transportation. People move to manhattan for a job, get married, have a kid, move to the suburbs, and continue to work in manhattan. Their children grow up going to the city on the weekends and move there when they graduate college. The manhattan population is 1.6m, but on any given weekday there are 4m people on the island. 750k people go through grand central every day (Westchester/Fairfield), Penn station another 300k (Long Island). The PATH has another 200k (New Jersey). This is all while excluding the drivers. > I imagine this has influence on hiring. I'm not sure how I could convince you, but I've lived here my entire life. There is absolutely no difference between people in the suburbs and in the city because they are the same people.

torstenvl 9y ago

You can think something is ridiculous all you want, but that doesn't make it inaccurate. You feel it's all a proxy for racism? Fine. Tell me, then: between an F-150 and a Silverado, which one is the "white" truck?

eli_gottlieb 9y ago
I don't think it's a proxy for racism. I think it's its own form of xenophobia. I don't care which one is the "white" truck, I care that someone's drawing major social distinctions on the difference between one truck and another.
- stillsut 9y ago
  Well if the truck is your work then obviously people are going to draw distinctions over it. Which operating system shows you're smart: Windows or Linux? Is it "xenophobic" to prefer linux people? Also, Milton "ked" here. Of course I'd treat somebody from Milton differently, we share a whole unique culture which you clearly don't understand. You're the one being culturally ignorant: speaking of Milton and Medford as equivalent because of skin tone is the same as comparing a Sikh to Arab, cause you know, the funny hat and facial hair and stuff right?
  - eli_gottlieb 9y ago
    >Also, Milton "ked" here. Of course I'd treat somebody from Milton differently, we share a whole unique culture which you clearly don't understand. You're the one being culturally ignorant: speaking of Milton and Medford as equivalent because of skin tone is the same as comparing a Sikh to Arab, cause you know, the funny hat and facial hair and stuff right? My wife is from Milton. She has nothing but nasty things to say about its "whole unique culture" ;-).
EADGBE 9y ago
I commented above about car culture here vs other parts of the US which tend to have better transportation or locality options. (Forget truck culture). It's one of only a few things I've found a lot of non-Midwesterns don't get. And honestly, it probably is pretty ridiculous. But when housing is affordable, high-paying jobs are abundant, and schools overall are great; the car becomes the deciding factor, as the square footage of a mansion and a historic bungalow aren't really reflected in their prices differences. I'd guess the Silverado. However, really the comparison between Silverado and F-150 really has to do with the color of your collar; not the color of your skin.

EADGBE 9y ago

> and choice of automobile comes across as yuuuuge levels of special pleading to justify levels of xenophobia that we'd think of as the stuff of stand-up comedy. I assume by the italics you really think that part's ridiculous. But car culture here is very, very different than other parts of the US where public transportation or locality makes them unimportant.