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My first thought is how we need to start developing a better working vocabulary around having racist attitudes. Like the big-R Racist is the white power asshol

by Frondo 9y ago

My first thought is how we need to start developing a better working vocabulary around having racist attitudes. Like the big-R Racist is the white power asshole who wants to create a white ethnostate--that's one that's easy to spot, and most of us can say we're not that. The real pernicious damage to communities of color comes from the little-r racism that SO SO MANY people carry around totally unthinkingly. Like even my pretty progressive sister will spout off something like "well if they'd just work harder, or get a better job," when in reality there's a well-documented bias against hiring people with "black" names. The big-R Racism is easy to defeat, because most of us see it as pretty noxious. The little-r racism is so much tougher, because it's encoded into laws in innocent-seeming ways, it's encoded into algorithms in software (e.g. charging various rates by zip code, but zip code in many places ends up being a proxy for race, and who in this decade checked to make sure the assumptions you've encoded aren't just screwing over minorities), in a lot of unconscious biases (e.g. that AAVE is an uneducated form of english, not its own dialect). How do you call people's attention to that little-r racist stuff? Well, I don't know. The thing I do, and it feels like water dripping on stone, is I call out small assumptions whenever I see them, and I always, always draw attention to communities of color as being people, citizens, deserving of all equal opportunities (and pointing out how some law, algorithm, or assumption is denying them one). It's a real gentle advocacy, but it's also easy to stick to because it's absolutely the right thing to do once you see how stacked against CoC the system is.

aaron-lebo 9y ago
It's the term itself. You can differentiate between Racism and racism, but as soon as you call someone a racist, you've labeled them as an evil bigot. Racism is bigotry, but bigotry exists in tons of forms. It's hard to recount the absurd, prejudiced attitudes even intelligent and moral people will have about things like nationality, religion, programming languages...etc. Well, I don't know. The thing I do, and it feels like water dripping on stone, is I call out small assumptions whenever I see them, and I always, always draw attention to communities of color as being people, citizens, deserving of all equal opportunities (and pointing out how some law, algorithm, or assumption is denying them one). It's a real gentle advocacy, but it's also easy to stick to because it's absolutely the right thing to do once you see how stacked against CoC the system is There's nothing wrong with this, in fact it is probably the correct thing to do, but you can really quickly become that guy. Oh, there's Johnny again, acting like we're all a bunch of racists and we don't understand the daily struggles people have. You can get tuned out really quick, if it's presented in terms that compare one group to another, the implicit assumption that because you're not in that group, you've had it easy. When people feel confronted in that way and they know they haven't had it easy, they're less likely to care whether they are racist. That's the impression I get from the groundswell of support for someone like Trump. The small-racists aren't supporting him because they hate other people, they supporting him because he act like he cares about them and at least rhetorically will stand up for them. I guess what I'm saying is, it's important not to lose sight of the fact that the goal must be to stand up for all groups of people and to deny bigotry in all of its forms.
Veelox 9y ago
I think you are on the right track to try to develop a better vocabulary about racist attitudes. But it needs to be more nuanced than the Racism/racism distinction you draw. Lets flesh out the pricing algorithm example. Lets say a home security company want to provide per zip code prices. The inputs they use are population density, crime rate, and availability of installers. This will lead to black neighborhoods being charged higher rates (since they statistically have higher crime rates). Even though they have instituted a policy systematically favors one racial group over another I don't think your little racism is the right term because at no point did they consider race. In fact, the world is so backwards that they would have to either purposefully overcharge white people or undercharge black people to not charge the two groups differently. They are literally damned if they do and damned if they don't. Either way they are racist by a legitimate definition of the word. The best solution I can think of is to try and make the world as race blind as possible while trying to improve disadvantaged communities. So we should remove names from the hiring process when people. Yet, your sister has a point, CoC need to develop a culture of education and hard work. Its a tough problem that needs help from everyone.
- wolco 9y ago
  Or you can move into that zipcode and start equalizing things
trumpownsyou420 9y ago
holy fucking SJW. kys.
shonenbat 9y ago
Low-resolution labels like "racism" are a form of bigotry by themselves, I don't think it's as easy to "solve" as you make it out to be. I don't like how the "solutions" tend to work through social engineering and by introducing systemic racism against the majority. The concept of racism I tend to use, is "race-based discrimination" in the sense that you don't give individuals a chance when they're of certain races, and treat them badly without knowing who they are personally. I don't really think it's wrong to discriminate based on the acts or cultures of people, and if a group of people (such a race or an ethnicity) share both a culture and behaviors, and a phenotype, I think it's totally fine to be wary of that phenotype. I strongly disagree with any notion of discrimination that tries to redefine it as being centered around a power differential. In the end, most forms of discrimination are heuristics, and heuristics are very important tools for people, they need them to be able to think and to act. I also don't really think racism is bad in the context of groups. Doesn't it make perfect sense for minorities to choose to support "their people" more? Like mostly buying at shops run by "their people"? Why doesn't the majority get to do this? Doesn't the majority have a right to existence and self-determination like the minorities do? And why would it be such a terrible solution to give the minorities their own land? Some who advocate for ethostates also advocate for ethnostates for the minorities; to me that doesn't look like they hate the minorities, because they want the same faith for them as for themselves. Of course there exist people who advocate for genocide (on both sides... it's not just the majority interest groups), but are they a majority in any meaningful way, and are they really that effective and relevant? Edit: I'm not allowed to append this to my post apparently, maybe this will work: https://pastebin.com/zMtADVVr https://pastebin.com/zMtADVVr
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
- opportune 9y ago
  I think you are talking about something different. The parent is saying that little-r racism isn't the result of one single person deliberately trying to be racist towards someone, it's the aggregate of things people do collectively without thinking about it that are racist. For example, someone named DeQuan is less likely to get an interview callback compared to John, even if they have the same resumes. Or instead, a black teenager is a lot more likely to have the cops called on him for walking down the street in a residential area than a white teenager. It has less to do with intention and more to do with implicit biases that collectively result in systemic discrimination
- extra88 9y ago
  I don't buy into this big-R, little-r racism but "well if they'd just work harder, or get a better job," and "they" refers to black people, that's racism. > Racism is very much a matter of intent. No. Unconscious bias, which by definition does not include intent, can still be a form of racism. I do agree that sometimes other forms of bias or prejudice is taken for racism. Many times it's a class issue; many richer people want to avoid poor people but if people of color are far more likely to be poor, they're more likely to be avoided.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    > Unconscious bias, which by definition does not include intent, can still be a form of racism. I think there's little utility to this version of racism outside of discussions about sociology. In particular, there's no real way to show someone is not racist given this definition. So if someone was determined to be unconsciously racist, there's nothing really to do be done about it since there's no way to get a "clean bill of psyche".
    - 9y ago

by Frondo 9y ago

aaron-lebo 9y ago

It's the term itself. You can differentiate between Racism and racism, but as soon as you call someone a racist, you've labeled them as an evil bigot. Racism is bigotry, but bigotry exists in tons of forms. It's hard to recount the absurd, prejudiced attitudes even intelligent and moral people will have about things like nationality, religion, programming languages...etc. Well, I don't know. The thing I do, and it feels like water dripping on stone, is I call out small assumptions whenever I see them, and I always, always draw attention to communities of color as being people, citizens, deserving of all equal opportunities (and pointing out how some law, algorithm, or assumption is denying them one). It's a real gentle advocacy, but it's also easy to stick to because it's absolutely the right thing to do once you see how stacked against CoC the system is There's nothing wrong with this, in fact it is probably the correct thing to do, but you can really quickly become that guy. Oh, there's Johnny again, acting like we're all a bunch of racists and we don't understand the daily struggles people have. You can get tuned out really quick, if it's presented in terms that compare one group to another, the implicit assumption that because you're not in that group, you've had it easy. When people feel confronted in that way and they know they haven't had it easy, they're less likely to care whether they are racist. That's the impression I get from the groundswell of support for someone like Trump. The small-racists aren't supporting him because they hate other people, they supporting him because he act like he cares about them and at least rhetorically will stand up for them. I guess what I'm saying is, it's important not to lose sight of the fact that the goal must be to stand up for all groups of people and to deny bigotry in all of its forms.

Veelox 9y ago

I think you are on the right track to try to develop a better vocabulary about racist attitudes. But it needs to be more nuanced than the Racism/racism distinction you draw. Lets flesh out the pricing algorithm example. Lets say a home security company want to provide per zip code prices. The inputs they use are population density, crime rate, and availability of installers. This will lead to black neighborhoods being charged higher rates (since they statistically have higher crime rates). Even though they have instituted a policy systematically favors one racial group over another I don't think your little racism is the right term because at no point did they consider race. In fact, the world is so backwards that they would have to either purposefully overcharge white people or undercharge black people to not charge the two groups differently. They are literally damned if they do and damned if they don't. Either way they are racist by a legitimate definition of the word. The best solution I can think of is to try and make the world as race blind as possible while trying to improve disadvantaged communities. So we should remove names from the hiring process when people. Yet, your sister has a point, CoC need to develop a culture of education and hard work. Its a tough problem that needs help from everyone.

wolco 9y ago
Or you can move into that zipcode and start equalizing things

trumpownsyou420 9y ago

holy fucking SJW. kys.

shonenbat 9y ago

Low-resolution labels like "racism" are a form of bigotry by themselves, I don't think it's as easy to "solve" as you make it out to be. I don't like how the "solutions" tend to work through social engineering and by introducing systemic racism against the majority. The concept of racism I tend to use, is "race-based discrimination" in the sense that you don't give individuals a chance when they're of certain races, and treat them badly without knowing who they are personally. I don't really think it's wrong to discriminate based on the acts or cultures of people, and if a group of people (such a race or an ethnicity) share both a culture and behaviors, and a phenotype, I think it's totally fine to be wary of that phenotype. I strongly disagree with any notion of discrimination that tries to redefine it as being centered around a power differential. In the end, most forms of discrimination are heuristics, and heuristics are very important tools for people, they need them to be able to think and to act. I also don't really think racism is bad in the context of groups. Doesn't it make perfect sense for minorities to choose to support "their people" more? Like mostly buying at shops run by "their people"? Why doesn't the majority get to do this? Doesn't the majority have a right to existence and self-determination like the minorities do? And why would it be such a terrible solution to give the minorities their own land? Some who advocate for ethostates also advocate for ethnostates for the minorities; to me that doesn't look like they hate the minorities, because they want the same faith for them as for themselves. Of course there exist people who advocate for genocide (on both sides... it's not just the majority interest groups), but are they a majority in any meaningful way, and are they really that effective and relevant? Edit: I'm not allowed to append this to my post apparently, maybe this will work: https://pastebin.com/zMtADVVr https://pastebin.com/zMtADVVr

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

opportune 9y ago
I think you are talking about something different. The parent is saying that little-r racism isn't the result of one single person deliberately trying to be racist towards someone, it's the aggregate of things people do collectively without thinking about it that are racist. For example, someone named DeQuan is less likely to get an interview callback compared to John, even if they have the same resumes. Or instead, a black teenager is a lot more likely to have the cops called on him for walking down the street in a residential area than a white teenager. It has less to do with intention and more to do with implicit biases that collectively result in systemic discrimination
extra88 9y ago
I don't buy into this big-R, little-r racism but "well if they'd just work harder, or get a better job," and "they" refers to black people, that's racism. > Racism is very much a matter of intent. No. Unconscious bias, which by definition does not include intent, can still be a form of racism. I do agree that sometimes other forms of bias or prejudice is taken for racism. Many times it's a class issue; many richer people want to avoid poor people but if people of color are far more likely to be poor, they're more likely to be avoided.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- humanrebar 9y ago
  > Unconscious bias, which by definition does not include intent, can still be a form of racism. I think there's little utility to this version of racism outside of discussions about sociology. In particular, there's no real way to show someone is not racist given this definition. So if someone was determined to be unconsciously racist, there's nothing really to do be done about it since there's no way to get a "clean bill of psyche".
  - 9y ago