5 ms·

I'd like to share my story related to ageism: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15642428 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15642428 If it's that hard fo

I'd like to share my story related to ageism: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15642428 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15642428 If it's that hard for me, it seems true to say it's much harder for someone much older. I hear you about the -ism fanaticism. But there seem to be serious problems on the horizon. I can't make you believe them. All I can do is try to relate it to something in your life.

billmalarky 9y ago
Once you have a strong understanding of how to architect code and how the "big picture" technologies fundamentally work, learning the different flavors/frameworks/etc takes time, but we're talking weeks of learning vs the years it takes to understand the fundamentals. You're not going to be an expert in the idiosyncrasies of X tech unless you are working with it full time for a year or so but you'll know enough to pass a job interview. After reading your story, for example, I imagine you could spend 3 months part-time doing an online bootcamp like treehouse (focusing on big picture web architecture and syntax) and you would be more than employable as a web dev.
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  but you'll know enough to pass a job interview. Unfortunately not. I believed it myself, until it became obvious it was a myth: One interview went like this: They sat me down, opened up postgres, and said "Accomplish these goals." The goals were simple things like write SQL statements to query for certain types of users, or join data together. I never had any reason to learn any of that. I knew that I could learn it if I needed to. I understood conceptually what joins are, why to use them, and what to avoid and why. The "why" is the crucial ingredient, and I naively thought that would protect me. No... It's not fun when you have to sheepishly admit in front of three engineers that you have no idea how to write those SQL queries. It was the same deal with Rails. Ditto for JS. Eventually I went through 5 interviews and struck out on all 5, in a row.
  - billmalarky 9y ago
    That's my point though. You say you don't know the job skills that you need for you to hit the ground running (which is what pretty much every employers expects these days unfortunately) and what I'm saying to you is you could develop a good understanding of these skills rapidly because of your background vs the years it takes if you have zero tech background. You could spend nights and weekends learning postgresql/SQL, web MVC architecture, JS syntax (for node.js and frontend dev work), and http concepts, in a few months. That's enough to open a lot of interview doors.
    - sillysaurus3 9y ago
      Yes, I could, and that was my goal throughout that time. I was doing exactly that, but hadn't focused on postgres yet. The point is that it was impossible to know beforehand which of those skills I'd be quizzed on. It's both difficult and senseless to learn every technology just in case I'm quizzed on it in a 30 minute interview (which really doesn't give you any sense of my skills or learning capabilities anyway). The sole way to deal with this situation is to plow through a dozen interviews until one sticks. You say you don't know the job skills that you need for you to hit the ground running This isn't an accurate description: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15714338 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15714338 I'm about to hit HN's comment limit, so I think we'll have to leave this off here. Feel free to email me if you'd like to know more or chat about this. It's an interesting topic and I'm simply trying to call attention to the other side of it. It's so easy to dismiss it as fake or that it doesn't exist. The real world is quite a bit more complicated and messed up in certain ways; it's not just sour grapes talking.
      - billmalarky 9y ago
        Yeah tech interviews are notoriously awful about testing for trivia style tech knowledge and you either know it or you don't. >The sole way to deal with this situation is to plow through a dozen interviews until one sticks. Yep, and that's pretty much the standard. On the plus side the more you interview the more you see the same questions popping up so you can prep for them. It's an awful numbers game but so long as you keep optimizing/learning that's all that matters. For what it's worth there was a post on HN a few months back from a high end recruiting company where candidates were highly pre-qualified to interview for certain positions and even then I think their success rate was like 20%. It's the nature of the beast for tech. If your interview offer percentage is too high that probably means you just aren't reaching high enough. >It's so easy to dismiss it as fake or that it doesn't exist. The real world is quite a bit more complicated and messed up in certain ways; it's not just sour grapes talking. I'm not dismissing you at all, I've bombed tech interviews before it's the nature of the beast.
maccard 9y ago
I've read your post, and I try to empathise, but at the same time I can't help but feel you were naive in thinking you could take on a web development job without having any of the skills required, even a very basic level of them. If a 20 year old applied for a job that involved writing SQL queries, and couldn't, I'd expect him to be rejected. There's a world of difference between low level C/C++ style programming, and working in Rails day to day, and if you think there isn't, then you should be able to prove it.
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  If a 20 year old applied for a job that involved writing SQL queries, and couldn't, I'd expect him to be rejected. I've been a webdev now for some time, and I've written zero SQL queries. Firebase is nice. So is Mongoose. And yes, I can structure it as a traditional SQL relational database with proper indices if needed. I'm not choosing technologies that cause technical debt or problems down the road. If you think that you can't take a programmer with a decade of experience and a background in security (where I performed SQL injection attacks) and train them to write SQL queries, then that says a lot about the company. I don't regret failing that interview.
  - jbooth 9y ago
    Respectfully, if you're going to play the "I'm a back-end systems guy but I can learn this front-end JS stuff" card, you can't choke on some SQL queries. We're all here stroking our gray beards about how kids these days don't even understand the tools they're using, and then you turn around and say "i dunno, the ORM handled it for me"? SQL hasn't appreciably changed in 40 years. I'll take your word that you really know your C/Unix stuff, and I get that gamedev is it's own niche, but I'd expect most senior devs to have developed a rock-solid grasp of SQL just by osmosis over their years.
  - kamaal 9y ago
    >>I can structure it as a traditional SQL relational database with proper indices if needed. These sort of things are the reason I have to these days deal with programmers who show me their several thousands of lines of code and feel proud about it, until I show them it can done with a few SQL queries. Or that Java/Python program who proudly flaunts their few thousands of lines of code weekend project, which is basically a awk command that can be written under 3 minutes. Only a few months back I was asked to review a backend application. The developer explained passionately how his massive structure of Java code plays with the store, which happens to be a key-value store, while the application is largely transactional in nature. Despite explaining to them why this isn't great idea even from an operations perspective, let alone conceptually or design wise they went ahead. Last time I checked they have to often deal with dirty read/write issues in case of temporary failure, and disk crashes apparently are common. These sort of issues can be avoided if devs sit down and get basic exposure to things SQL, which by the can be done under a few weeks.
moduspol 9y ago
Thanks for sharing this--and sorry in advance if I came off abrasive. I just think the key difference in our industry is that it's far more punishing than others if you're not keeping up to date with relevant skills. I'm 29 and my last search was two years ago. My last job had me primarily doing ColdFusion-based web development and occasionally iOS development. A big part of the reason I left was specifically to avoid finding myself trapped with few relevant skills a few years later. I got into and built hobby projects around an upcoming "hot" new paradigm (serverless) and learned Python along the way to do it. Being able to talk passionately about that (and cloud architecture in general) was key to finding my next position even though most of my cloud experience on the job was with the plain stuff (like normal VMs). But despite being 27, I wasn't immune from having to branch out, learn new things, and become passionate about something to find a new position. Respectfully: our industry doesn't allow for one to stick to the same skillset for long. Your post reinforces what I had feared, which is that people are blaming ageism while sitting on a skillset that is no longer competitive. I think this is a problem that needs to be handled, and maybe that's through a more industry norm "20% time" for trying new things, a stronger case for experience applying well to new concepts, or something else. But I don't think the problem is ageism.
- majormajor 9y ago
  > But despite being 27, I wasn't immune from having to branch out, learn new things, and become passionate about something to find a new position. Respectfully: our industry doesn't allow for one to stick to the same skillset for long. Your post reinforces what I had feared, which is that people are blaming ageism while sitting on a skillset that is no longer competitive. That's shortsighted and your employer's process sounds shortsighted. I don't give a crap if you've already used React, Redux, Express, whatever new flavor of the months are coming. If you're 23 and actively using them, odds are you're still going to be worth much less to my team than someone 40 who has to pick them up their first couple months but can immediately contribute valuable, hard-earned broadly-applicable timeless lessons about how to build and operate software. My job as employer, and my team's job as onboarders, is to train you in the specific skills. Yours is to bring a proven ability to learn, and the general knowledge, wisdom, and thought processes to know how to build things right. I don't care if you're passionate, I want to know that you'll be professional enough to take pride in what you do and hold yourself to a standard worth being paid for. If you're a hiring manager and can't figure out better questions than "can you prove you know some things about X technology already," well, please don't get too much better, cause I enjoy being able to hire the skilled people you overlook without as much competition. ;)

billmalarky 9y ago

Once you have a strong understanding of how to architect code and how the "big picture" technologies fundamentally work, learning the different flavors/frameworks/etc takes time, but we're talking weeks of learning vs the years it takes to understand the fundamentals. You're not going to be an expert in the idiosyncrasies of X tech unless you are working with it full time for a year or so but you'll know enough to pass a job interview. After reading your story, for example, I imagine you could spend 3 months part-time doing an online bootcamp like treehouse (focusing on big picture web architecture and syntax) and you would be more than employable as a web dev.

sillysaurus3 9y ago
but you'll know enough to pass a job interview. Unfortunately not. I believed it myself, until it became obvious it was a myth: One interview went like this: They sat me down, opened up postgres, and said "Accomplish these goals." The goals were simple things like write SQL statements to query for certain types of users, or join data together. I never had any reason to learn any of that. I knew that I could learn it if I needed to. I understood conceptually what joins are, why to use them, and what to avoid and why. The "why" is the crucial ingredient, and I naively thought that would protect me. No... It's not fun when you have to sheepishly admit in front of three engineers that you have no idea how to write those SQL queries. It was the same deal with Rails. Ditto for JS. Eventually I went through 5 interviews and struck out on all 5, in a row.
- billmalarky 9y ago
  That's my point though. You say you don't know the job skills that you need for you to hit the ground running (which is what pretty much every employers expects these days unfortunately) and what I'm saying to you is you could develop a good understanding of these skills rapidly because of your background vs the years it takes if you have zero tech background. You could spend nights and weekends learning postgresql/SQL, web MVC architecture, JS syntax (for node.js and frontend dev work), and http concepts, in a few months. That's enough to open a lot of interview doors.
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    Yes, I could, and that was my goal throughout that time. I was doing exactly that, but hadn't focused on postgres yet. The point is that it was impossible to know beforehand which of those skills I'd be quizzed on. It's both difficult and senseless to learn every technology just in case I'm quizzed on it in a 30 minute interview (which really doesn't give you any sense of my skills or learning capabilities anyway). The sole way to deal with this situation is to plow through a dozen interviews until one sticks. You say you don't know the job skills that you need for you to hit the ground running This isn't an accurate description: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15714338 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15714338 I'm about to hit HN's comment limit, so I think we'll have to leave this off here. Feel free to email me if you'd like to know more or chat about this. It's an interesting topic and I'm simply trying to call attention to the other side of it. It's so easy to dismiss it as fake or that it doesn't exist. The real world is quite a bit more complicated and messed up in certain ways; it's not just sour grapes talking.
    - billmalarky 9y ago
      Yeah tech interviews are notoriously awful about testing for trivia style tech knowledge and you either know it or you don't. >The sole way to deal with this situation is to plow through a dozen interviews until one sticks. Yep, and that's pretty much the standard. On the plus side the more you interview the more you see the same questions popping up so you can prep for them. It's an awful numbers game but so long as you keep optimizing/learning that's all that matters. For what it's worth there was a post on HN a few months back from a high end recruiting company where candidates were highly pre-qualified to interview for certain positions and even then I think their success rate was like 20%. It's the nature of the beast for tech. If your interview offer percentage is too high that probably means you just aren't reaching high enough. >It's so easy to dismiss it as fake or that it doesn't exist. The real world is quite a bit more complicated and messed up in certain ways; it's not just sour grapes talking. I'm not dismissing you at all, I've bombed tech interviews before it's the nature of the beast.

maccard 9y ago

I've read your post, and I try to empathise, but at the same time I can't help but feel you were naive in thinking you could take on a web development job without having any of the skills required, even a very basic level of them. If a 20 year old applied for a job that involved writing SQL queries, and couldn't, I'd expect him to be rejected. There's a world of difference between low level C/C++ style programming, and working in Rails day to day, and if you think there isn't, then you should be able to prove it.

sillysaurus3 9y ago
If a 20 year old applied for a job that involved writing SQL queries, and couldn't, I'd expect him to be rejected. I've been a webdev now for some time, and I've written zero SQL queries. Firebase is nice. So is Mongoose. And yes, I can structure it as a traditional SQL relational database with proper indices if needed. I'm not choosing technologies that cause technical debt or problems down the road. If you think that you can't take a programmer with a decade of experience and a background in security (where I performed SQL injection attacks) and train them to write SQL queries, then that says a lot about the company. I don't regret failing that interview.
- jbooth 9y ago
  Respectfully, if you're going to play the "I'm a back-end systems guy but I can learn this front-end JS stuff" card, you can't choke on some SQL queries. We're all here stroking our gray beards about how kids these days don't even understand the tools they're using, and then you turn around and say "i dunno, the ORM handled it for me"? SQL hasn't appreciably changed in 40 years. I'll take your word that you really know your C/Unix stuff, and I get that gamedev is it's own niche, but I'd expect most senior devs to have developed a rock-solid grasp of SQL just by osmosis over their years.
- kamaal 9y ago
  >>I can structure it as a traditional SQL relational database with proper indices if needed. These sort of things are the reason I have to these days deal with programmers who show me their several thousands of lines of code and feel proud about it, until I show them it can done with a few SQL queries. Or that Java/Python program who proudly flaunts their few thousands of lines of code weekend project, which is basically a awk command that can be written under 3 minutes. Only a few months back I was asked to review a backend application. The developer explained passionately how his massive structure of Java code plays with the store, which happens to be a key-value store, while the application is largely transactional in nature. Despite explaining to them why this isn't great idea even from an operations perspective, let alone conceptually or design wise they went ahead. Last time I checked they have to often deal with dirty read/write issues in case of temporary failure, and disk crashes apparently are common. These sort of issues can be avoided if devs sit down and get basic exposure to things SQL, which by the can be done under a few weeks.

moduspol 9y ago

Thanks for sharing this--and sorry in advance if I came off abrasive. I just think the key difference in our industry is that it's far more punishing than others if you're not keeping up to date with relevant skills. I'm 29 and my last search was two years ago. My last job had me primarily doing ColdFusion-based web development and occasionally iOS development. A big part of the reason I left was specifically to avoid finding myself trapped with few relevant skills a few years later. I got into and built hobby projects around an upcoming "hot" new paradigm (serverless) and learned Python along the way to do it. Being able to talk passionately about that (and cloud architecture in general) was key to finding my next position even though most of my cloud experience on the job was with the plain stuff (like normal VMs). But despite being 27, I wasn't immune from having to branch out, learn new things, and become passionate about something to find a new position. Respectfully: our industry doesn't allow for one to stick to the same skillset for long. Your post reinforces what I had feared, which is that people are blaming ageism while sitting on a skillset that is no longer competitive. I think this is a problem that needs to be handled, and maybe that's through a more industry norm "20% time" for trying new things, a stronger case for experience applying well to new concepts, or something else. But I don't think the problem is ageism.

majormajor 9y ago
> But despite being 27, I wasn't immune from having to branch out, learn new things, and become passionate about something to find a new position. Respectfully: our industry doesn't allow for one to stick to the same skillset for long. Your post reinforces what I had feared, which is that people are blaming ageism while sitting on a skillset that is no longer competitive. That's shortsighted and your employer's process sounds shortsighted. I don't give a crap if you've already used React, Redux, Express, whatever new flavor of the months are coming. If you're 23 and actively using them, odds are you're still going to be worth much less to my team than someone 40 who has to pick them up their first couple months but can immediately contribute valuable, hard-earned broadly-applicable timeless lessons about how to build and operate software. My job as employer, and my team's job as onboarders, is to train you in the specific skills. Yours is to bring a proven ability to learn, and the general knowledge, wisdom, and thought processes to know how to build things right. I don't care if you're passionate, I want to know that you'll be professional enough to take pride in what you do and hold yourself to a standard worth being paid for. If you're a hiring manager and can't figure out better questions than "can you prove you know some things about X technology already," well, please don't get too much better, cause I enjoy being able to hire the skilled people you overlook without as much competition. ;)