4 ms·

Ah yes, we should have people lying to themselves.

by gech 9y ago

dominotw 9y ago
> A majority will never be rich Do you really think most people are unaware of this basic fact?
- ryandrake 9y ago
  It looks like at least 39% are.
ImSkeptical 9y ago
That's a cynical way to put it. A more positive spin on the same idea would be that we encourage ambition and hope for the future. If my child wants to be a billionaire, should I say "Sweetie, you probably won't be a billionaire, so don't get your hopes up." Or should I say "it'll be tough, almost impossible, you'll need to work hard, study hard, be smart, etc."? I know which lesson I'd prefer to give.
- graedus 9y ago
  So a basic problem arises when this belief causes people to vote against their interests for policies that benefit the actually-rich to their own (incorrectly expecting that they will be rich next year) detriment. Tax cuts for the rich and for corporations, dismantling programs that benefit the poor and middle class, defunding various public institutions, etc. It's fine to strive to achieve as much as possible and earn a bunch of money, but the core of the issue highlighted by that quote about "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" is a sort of class-affinity with the rich that is unwarranted for most people.
  - ImSkeptical 9y ago
    I'd say that this is an argument that you should vote for systems that treat people fairly regardless of class. Even if you have no chance of becoming a millionaire or billionaire, it seems to me you should still try to treat such people fairly - according to sound principles that you would be willing to apply to yourself if you were in their position. Likewise for the very poor. I hope to never be very poor, but I still wouldn't vote for systems that mistreat or exploit them. This is not because I'm trying to protect myself in the circumstances that I become destitute, but because I think morality requires the consistent application of principles to people regardless of their economic wealth.
    - crgt 9y ago
      This sounds like Rawls’ veil of ignorance argument..
- ryandrake 9y ago
  The idea that "Hard work" will make you a billionaire is largely a myth, but a nice-sounding one because it implies anyone can do it. Hard work might get you from the bottom 20% to maybe the next 20%, but it's not going to let you crack the 1% club. If my kid tells me she wants to be a billionaire, I'm going to tell her to find the rich kids in school, make friends with them and introduce me to their parents. Entry into the top 1% is a function of the quality of your contacts list, not a function of work.
  - ImSkeptical 9y ago
    I never suggested that hard work would be sufficient to make someone a billionaire. I do suspect hard work might be necessary, assuming the "inherit" case is ruled out. Hard work will likely improve the chances of one becoming a billionaire, and therefore it makes sense to advice it to aspiring billionaires.

Ah yes, we should have people lying to themselves.

by gech 9y ago

Ah yes, we should have people lying to themselves.

dominotw 9y ago

> A majority will never be rich Do you really think most people are unaware of this basic fact?

ryandrake 9y ago
It looks like at least 39% are.

ImSkeptical 9y ago

That's a cynical way to put it. A more positive spin on the same idea would be that we encourage ambition and hope for the future. If my child wants to be a billionaire, should I say "Sweetie, you probably won't be a billionaire, so don't get your hopes up." Or should I say "it'll be tough, almost impossible, you'll need to work hard, study hard, be smart, etc."? I know which lesson I'd prefer to give.

graedus 9y ago
So a basic problem arises when this belief causes people to vote against their interests for policies that benefit the actually-rich to their own (incorrectly expecting that they will be rich next year) detriment. Tax cuts for the rich and for corporations, dismantling programs that benefit the poor and middle class, defunding various public institutions, etc. It's fine to strive to achieve as much as possible and earn a bunch of money, but the core of the issue highlighted by that quote about "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" is a sort of class-affinity with the rich that is unwarranted for most people.
- ImSkeptical 9y ago
  I'd say that this is an argument that you should vote for systems that treat people fairly regardless of class. Even if you have no chance of becoming a millionaire or billionaire, it seems to me you should still try to treat such people fairly - according to sound principles that you would be willing to apply to yourself if you were in their position. Likewise for the very poor. I hope to never be very poor, but I still wouldn't vote for systems that mistreat or exploit them. This is not because I'm trying to protect myself in the circumstances that I become destitute, but because I think morality requires the consistent application of principles to people regardless of their economic wealth.
  - crgt 9y ago
    This sounds like Rawls’ veil of ignorance argument..
ryandrake 9y ago
The idea that "Hard work" will make you a billionaire is largely a myth, but a nice-sounding one because it implies anyone can do it. Hard work might get you from the bottom 20% to maybe the next 20%, but it's not going to let you crack the 1% club. If my kid tells me she wants to be a billionaire, I'm going to tell her to find the rich kids in school, make friends with them and introduce me to their parents. Entry into the top 1% is a function of the quality of your contacts list, not a function of work.
- ImSkeptical 9y ago
  I never suggested that hard work would be sufficient to make someone a billionaire. I do suspect hard work might be necessary, assuming the "inherit" case is ruled out. Hard work will likely improve the chances of one becoming a billionaire, and therefore it makes sense to advice it to aspiring billionaires.