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> I don't think it's ageism if one person is selected based on being willing to work more for less money. That's just a labor market. Agreed, however very few

> I don't think it's ageism if one person is selected based on being willing to work more for less money. That's just a labor market. Agreed, however very few ever come out and says that so directly. In a lot of cases the reasons are given as not having the right "cultural fit", or being "over qualified" or some other excuse because the person hiring cannot stomach it to simply say "we want cheap resources that we can work to the bone". No one should feel like they need to perform the equivalent of slave labour in order to get a job. 20-somethings should not have to work 80 hour weeks. Allowing them the free time to pursue their interests will make them better employees.

moduspol 9y ago
Agreed on all points, but we're going down a dark road when any measurable disparity is assumed to be an unfair "-ism" without evidence, that must be corrected because clearly the decisionmaking gatekeepers are "-ists." It's possible the problem (at a macro level) is caused by other correlating factors, such as differing salary expectations and how up-to-date skillsets are.
- Swinx43 9y ago
  I definitely agree with you and this particular dark road is best left untraveled. It would be really great to get more data behind what is mostly anecdotal evidence. Also getting data from across the US and other countries would be very useful in understanding this better. Without the data it is too easy to go down the dark path.
  - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
    we need a #metoo movement for ageist experiences in the interview process and beyond! This antiquated EEOC complaint business needs a "disruption" by a more "agile" and effective approach.
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  I'd like to share my story related to ageism: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15642428 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15642428 If it's that hard for me, it seems true to say it's much harder for someone much older. I hear you about the -ism fanaticism. But there seem to be serious problems on the horizon. I can't make you believe them. All I can do is try to relate it to something in your life.
  - billmalarky 9y ago
    Once you have a strong understanding of how to architect code and how the "big picture" technologies fundamentally work, learning the different flavors/frameworks/etc takes time, but we're talking weeks of learning vs the years it takes to understand the fundamentals. You're not going to be an expert in the idiosyncrasies of X tech unless you are working with it full time for a year or so but you'll know enough to pass a job interview. After reading your story, for example, I imagine you could spend 3 months part-time doing an online bootcamp like treehouse (focusing on big picture web architecture and syntax) and you would be more than employable as a web dev.
    - sillysaurus3 9y ago
      but you'll know enough to pass a job interview. Unfortunately not. I believed it myself, until it became obvious it was a myth: One interview went like this: They sat me down, opened up postgres, and said "Accomplish these goals." The goals were simple things like write SQL statements to query for certain types of users, or join data together. I never had any reason to learn any of that. I knew that I could learn it if I needed to. I understood conceptually what joins are, why to use them, and what to avoid and why. The "why" is the crucial ingredient, and I naively thought that would protect me. No... It's not fun when you have to sheepishly admit in front of three engineers that you have no idea how to write those SQL queries. It was the same deal with Rails. Ditto for JS. Eventually I went through 5 interviews and struck out on all 5, in a row.
      - billmalarky 9y ago
        That's my point though. You say you don't know the job skills that you need for you to hit the ground running (which is what pretty much every employers expects these days unfortunately) and what I'm saying to you is you could develop a good understanding of these skills rapidly because of your background vs the years it takes if you have zero tech background. You could spend nights and weekends learning postgresql/SQL, web MVC architecture, JS syntax (for node.js and frontend dev work), and http concepts, in a few months. That's enough to open a lot of interview doors.

moduspol 9y ago

Agreed on all points, but we're going down a dark road when any measurable disparity is assumed to be an unfair "-ism" without evidence, that must be corrected because clearly the decisionmaking gatekeepers are "-ists." It's possible the problem (at a macro level) is caused by other correlating factors, such as differing salary expectations and how up-to-date skillsets are.

Swinx43 9y ago
I definitely agree with you and this particular dark road is best left untraveled. It would be really great to get more data behind what is mostly anecdotal evidence. Also getting data from across the US and other countries would be very useful in understanding this better. Without the data it is too easy to go down the dark path.
- brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
  we need a #metoo movement for ageist experiences in the interview process and beyond! This antiquated EEOC complaint business needs a "disruption" by a more "agile" and effective approach.
sillysaurus3 9y ago
I'd like to share my story related to ageism: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15642428 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15642428 If it's that hard for me, it seems true to say it's much harder for someone much older. I hear you about the -ism fanaticism. But there seem to be serious problems on the horizon. I can't make you believe them. All I can do is try to relate it to something in your life.
- billmalarky 9y ago
  Once you have a strong understanding of how to architect code and how the "big picture" technologies fundamentally work, learning the different flavors/frameworks/etc takes time, but we're talking weeks of learning vs the years it takes to understand the fundamentals. You're not going to be an expert in the idiosyncrasies of X tech unless you are working with it full time for a year or so but you'll know enough to pass a job interview. After reading your story, for example, I imagine you could spend 3 months part-time doing an online bootcamp like treehouse (focusing on big picture web architecture and syntax) and you would be more than employable as a web dev.
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    but you'll know enough to pass a job interview. Unfortunately not. I believed it myself, until it became obvious it was a myth: One interview went like this: They sat me down, opened up postgres, and said "Accomplish these goals." The goals were simple things like write SQL statements to query for certain types of users, or join data together. I never had any reason to learn any of that. I knew that I could learn it if I needed to. I understood conceptually what joins are, why to use them, and what to avoid and why. The "why" is the crucial ingredient, and I naively thought that would protect me. No... It's not fun when you have to sheepishly admit in front of three engineers that you have no idea how to write those SQL queries. It was the same deal with Rails. Ditto for JS. Eventually I went through 5 interviews and struck out on all 5, in a row.
    - billmalarky 9y ago
      That's my point though. You say you don't know the job skills that you need for you to hit the ground running (which is what pretty much every employers expects these days unfortunately) and what I'm saying to you is you could develop a good understanding of these skills rapidly because of your background vs the years it takes if you have zero tech background. You could spend nights and weekends learning postgresql/SQL, web MVC architecture, JS syntax (for node.js and frontend dev work), and http concepts, in a few months. That's enough to open a lot of interview doors.