5 ms·

This is precisely the reason I'm against UBI, I don't want to be involuntarily subject to it. I'd rather have the choice.

pjc50 9y ago
The capacity of people to rationalise a literal free lunch as oppression never ceases to amaze me.
- ApolloFortyNine 9y ago
  And the capacity of people to call government hand outs 'free' never ceases to amaze me. The money is coming from somewhere. It may be free to you, but it's someone else's money.
  - lovich 9y ago
    And with an actual free lunch the group handing it out is losing something. That doesn't change the fact that to you, it is free, and how is that a bad thing for you?
    - mdemare 9y ago
      In a world with a $10K yearly UBI, income taxes for many people will go up by a lot more than $10K.
      - lovich 9y ago
        Maybe were talking past each other. I definitely see why someone wouldn't want to pay for the system but I took OPs comment as complaining about being given money which I cannot understand
        ApolloFortyNine 9y ago
        Because they understand that someone has to pay for it, and they themselves wouldn't want to be that person? Just as you yourself pointed out?
        lovich 9y ago
        I'm not talking about supplying the money. I'm talking about being given something. If there was a Ubi system you presumably wouldn't be able to stop paying taxes for it just because you didn't want to receive the payment, so in that case why would you be upset about receiving the payment
        Mindless2112 9y ago
        If someone takes $20 from you so that they can give you back $10, why would you be grateful? You don't get to separate the taking from the giving.
        lovich 9y ago
        Again, I feel like we're talking past each other. The way I interpreted OP was him saying he didn't want the UBI payment if there was UBI implemented. If UBI is implemented you don't just get to opt out as that gets rid one of the major benefits of the system which is low administrative costs. The OP may not have meant his statement the way I interpreted it, but my interpretation of it definitely separated the taking from the giving
        ryandrake 9y ago
        They won't be that person that pays for it and they're still against it! It is truly mind boggling. If someone proposed a policy where everyone who makes under $1M gets a free sandwich, that everyone who makes over $10M pays for, the only people who sensibly should be against it are people who make over $10M or people who think they might one day make over $10M. Nobody else would ever have to pay for it--why would they be against it?
    - ApolloFortyNine 9y ago
      Because there isn't an infinite supply of money, it has to come from somewhere. It's the flaw in democracy that I'm surprised has taken this long to come about. People are inherently greedy, as you are pointing out, and will generally vote for whatever candidate will benefit them the most. They don't care about how it will effect the economy or where the money would come from, just that they get it. And with how hard it is to remove entitlements once they're passed, it's a constant snowball.
      - kwhitefoot 9y ago
        Money is only useful while in motion. Money paid to poor people is immediately spent on, mostly, necessary goods and services. Local economies benefit from the extra liquidity.
lovich 9y ago
Give it away then. I can't fathom how being given a free thing is bad for you. It's going to be a number in a ledger as well so it's not even like a particularly bulky gift you have to find a place for, and everyone is getting it so there won't be any envy from your neighbors. How would this be a bad thing?
tonyedgecombe 9y ago
You get a tax allowance right now, would you prefer not to have that?

pjc50 9y ago

The capacity of people to rationalise a literal free lunch as oppression never ceases to amaze me.

ApolloFortyNine 9y ago
And the capacity of people to call government hand outs 'free' never ceases to amaze me. The money is coming from somewhere. It may be free to you, but it's someone else's money.
- lovich 9y ago
  And with an actual free lunch the group handing it out is losing something. That doesn't change the fact that to you, it is free, and how is that a bad thing for you?
  - mdemare 9y ago
    In a world with a $10K yearly UBI, income taxes for many people will go up by a lot more than $10K.
    - lovich 9y ago
      Maybe were talking past each other. I definitely see why someone wouldn't want to pay for the system but I took OPs comment as complaining about being given money which I cannot understand
      - ApolloFortyNine 9y ago
        Because they understand that someone has to pay for it, and they themselves wouldn't want to be that person? Just as you yourself pointed out?
        lovich 9y ago
        I'm not talking about supplying the money. I'm talking about being given something. If there was a Ubi system you presumably wouldn't be able to stop paying taxes for it just because you didn't want to receive the payment, so in that case why would you be upset about receiving the payment
        Mindless2112 9y ago
        If someone takes $20 from you so that they can give you back $10, why would you be grateful? You don't get to separate the taking from the giving.
        lovich 9y ago
        Again, I feel like we're talking past each other. The way I interpreted OP was him saying he didn't want the UBI payment if there was UBI implemented. If UBI is implemented you don't just get to opt out as that gets rid one of the major benefits of the system which is low administrative costs. The OP may not have meant his statement the way I interpreted it, but my interpretation of it definitely separated the taking from the giving
        ryandrake 9y ago
        They won't be that person that pays for it and they're still against it! It is truly mind boggling. If someone proposed a policy where everyone who makes under $1M gets a free sandwich, that everyone who makes over $10M pays for, the only people who sensibly should be against it are people who make over $10M or people who think they might one day make over $10M. Nobody else would ever have to pay for it--why would they be against it?
  - ApolloFortyNine 9y ago
    Because there isn't an infinite supply of money, it has to come from somewhere. It's the flaw in democracy that I'm surprised has taken this long to come about. People are inherently greedy, as you are pointing out, and will generally vote for whatever candidate will benefit them the most. They don't care about how it will effect the economy or where the money would come from, just that they get it. And with how hard it is to remove entitlements once they're passed, it's a constant snowball.
    - kwhitefoot 9y ago
      Money is only useful while in motion. Money paid to poor people is immediately spent on, mostly, necessary goods and services. Local economies benefit from the extra liquidity.

lovich 9y ago

Give it away then. I can't fathom how being given a free thing is bad for you. It's going to be a number in a ledger as well so it's not even like a particularly bulky gift you have to find a place for, and everyone is getting it so there won't be any envy from your neighbors. How would this be a bad thing?

tonyedgecombe 9y ago

You get a tax allowance right now, would you prefer not to have that?