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> I don't think it's ageism if one person is selected based on being willing to work more for less money. That's just a labor market. All sorts of discriminati

by sidlls 9y ago

> I don't think it's ageism if one person is selected based on being willing to work more for less money. That's just a labor market. All sorts of discrimination exists still because "perfectly rational" arguments like yours ignore underlying reasons. For example: it's the same justification racists used for intelligence tests for voting not too long ago.

moduspol 9y ago
Yes, and all sorts of underlying reasons are hidden by assuming "-isms" and victimhood at the first sign of disparate outcomes. But trying to address perceived ageism doesn't solve the problem. Being aware of contributing factors and correcting for them on an individual level does.
- sidlls 9y ago
  > Yes, and all sorts of underlying reasons are hidden by assuming "-isms" and victimhood at the first sign of disparate outcomes. This is a loaded and contentious statement ("assuming...victimhood at the first sign"). And trying to address ageism is trying to solve the problem; the problem is ageism. In your particular example, ageism is manifest because older workers tend to have families and financial obligations (both of which, by the way, contribute to society). That's not "perceived" ageism. It's simply ageism.
  - moduspol 9y ago
    It is assuming victimhood, because it is presumed immoral (or illegal) activity for what could at least as reasonably be totally moral and legal decisionmaking as a result of other factors. If you choose not to work as much as someone else or made choices that require higher compensation, it is not an "-ism" for your employer to choose another candidate on that basis alone. We're going down a dark road claiming victimhood without evidence as quickly as people are.
    - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
      no one claims ageism at the first sign of it... you typically spend the years between 35 and 45 thinking... "no way! that's so stupid!" until it finally hits you, and you still can't believe it's really a thing. It's a lot like racism or sexism, except it's a bit more comforting to know that it will come to its perpetrator with a swiftness that will blow their mind.
- kurthr 9y ago
  How do you individually address an issue where the hiring manager is making a generic decision based on age unrelated to your individual performance (especially in hiring where they have no idea how many hours you personally work)? Why should dying your hair and wearing skinny jeans affect your hire rate? "-isms" don't work because they are rational individually, although they might work because they are stereotypically true. Or are you saying that the hiring manager should work on this individually... which would be actually just following the law.
  - moduspol 9y ago
    > How do you individually address an issue where the hiring manager is making a generic decision based on age unrelated to your individual performance (especially in hiring where they have no idea how many hours you personally work)? There isn't evidence of this, but even if you believed that were the case, you combat it the same way you would any other weak point of your value proposition. You address it head on in a tactful way that resolves those concerns without having to be asked explicitly. That could include interest and experience in an emerging tool or architecture (combats stereotype that skillset is outdated), casual commentary on the latest Game of Thrones or Silicon Valley season (combats stereotype of bad cultural fit), or a true passion in solving the problems the company sets out to solve (combats stereotype of clock-in clock-out worker). It could also include adjusting your salary expectations more in-line with what your competition is expecting (if necessary). The possibility that ageism is not the only cause cannot be simply ignored.
    - kurthr 9y ago
      But the "legitimate" reason given for ageism was that older people might not be willing to work longer hours. I don't see how you're going to get around that by talking about "Titties and Blood" or the SiVa 4-way masturbation scene. The best way past that sort of hire is to fake the graduation date on your resume', which isn't ethical. Alternately, make the hiring process more ethical. You don't individually address "-isms" by being cool and interested... because the hiring manager isn't cool or interested. The successful ones are using marginally accurate stereotypes to hire people they think will work harder for lower pay. I think they're philosophically related to the ones that outsourced everything because they thought that would help their promotion (and it did in the early 2000s) even if it drove the company into the ground.
ataturk 9y ago
Uhhhh...okay, how old are you? Let me offer some grounding: You've got roughly 30 years to make all the money you are going to make in your career, and that's if some disease, physical problem, or mental issue doesn't knock you down sooner. If you start out cheap and sell yourself short, you are going to have to make it up somewhere along the line. Are you still with me? How are you going to pick up the slack at age 40 and still be "cheap?" You can't! Salary, like law, is based on precedent. Each job you get should pay more up until you decide to downshift or semi-retire to some other field. Each year you work, you should be getting at least a cost-of-living type increase. If you're aren't thinking about retirement, you aren't doing things right and even if you're living paycheck to paycheck, do you have any plan for how you're going to keep on if your paychecks get smaller instead of larger? Why have a career if this basic concept isn't followed? So "that's just a labor market" is true, but a labor market that continuously discounts experience all the while demanding more of it is one that is completely out of touch with reality and with the reality of why we work at all and what its purpose for us is! People go through tragedies in their lives--either personal ones or shared ones due to recessions (layoffs, changes in what skills are marketable). You must demand top dollar for your skills for as long as you can because your chances of "making it up later" or recovering from a hardship are nil.

by sidlls 9y ago

moduspol 9y ago

Yes, and all sorts of underlying reasons are hidden by assuming "-isms" and victimhood at the first sign of disparate outcomes. But trying to address perceived ageism doesn't solve the problem. Being aware of contributing factors and correcting for them on an individual level does.

sidlls 9y ago
> Yes, and all sorts of underlying reasons are hidden by assuming "-isms" and victimhood at the first sign of disparate outcomes. This is a loaded and contentious statement ("assuming...victimhood at the first sign"). And trying to address ageism is trying to solve the problem; the problem is ageism. In your particular example, ageism is manifest because older workers tend to have families and financial obligations (both of which, by the way, contribute to society). That's not "perceived" ageism. It's simply ageism.
- moduspol 9y ago
  It is assuming victimhood, because it is presumed immoral (or illegal) activity for what could at least as reasonably be totally moral and legal decisionmaking as a result of other factors. If you choose not to work as much as someone else or made choices that require higher compensation, it is not an "-ism" for your employer to choose another candidate on that basis alone. We're going down a dark road claiming victimhood without evidence as quickly as people are.
  - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
    no one claims ageism at the first sign of it... you typically spend the years between 35 and 45 thinking... "no way! that's so stupid!" until it finally hits you, and you still can't believe it's really a thing. It's a lot like racism or sexism, except it's a bit more comforting to know that it will come to its perpetrator with a swiftness that will blow their mind.
kurthr 9y ago
How do you individually address an issue where the hiring manager is making a generic decision based on age unrelated to your individual performance (especially in hiring where they have no idea how many hours you personally work)? Why should dying your hair and wearing skinny jeans affect your hire rate? "-isms" don't work because they are rational individually, although they might work because they are stereotypically true. Or are you saying that the hiring manager should work on this individually... which would be actually just following the law.
- moduspol 9y ago
  > How do you individually address an issue where the hiring manager is making a generic decision based on age unrelated to your individual performance (especially in hiring where they have no idea how many hours you personally work)? There isn't evidence of this, but even if you believed that were the case, you combat it the same way you would any other weak point of your value proposition. You address it head on in a tactful way that resolves those concerns without having to be asked explicitly. That could include interest and experience in an emerging tool or architecture (combats stereotype that skillset is outdated), casual commentary on the latest Game of Thrones or Silicon Valley season (combats stereotype of bad cultural fit), or a true passion in solving the problems the company sets out to solve (combats stereotype of clock-in clock-out worker). It could also include adjusting your salary expectations more in-line with what your competition is expecting (if necessary). The possibility that ageism is not the only cause cannot be simply ignored.
  - kurthr 9y ago
    But the "legitimate" reason given for ageism was that older people might not be willing to work longer hours. I don't see how you're going to get around that by talking about "Titties and Blood" or the SiVa 4-way masturbation scene. The best way past that sort of hire is to fake the graduation date on your resume', which isn't ethical. Alternately, make the hiring process more ethical. You don't individually address "-isms" by being cool and interested... because the hiring manager isn't cool or interested. The successful ones are using marginally accurate stereotypes to hire people they think will work harder for lower pay. I think they're philosophically related to the ones that outsourced everything because they thought that would help their promotion (and it did in the early 2000s) even if it drove the company into the ground.

ataturk 9y ago

Uhhhh...okay, how old are you? Let me offer some grounding: You've got roughly 30 years to make all the money you are going to make in your career, and that's if some disease, physical problem, or mental issue doesn't knock you down sooner. If you start out cheap and sell yourself short, you are going to have to make it up somewhere along the line. Are you still with me? How are you going to pick up the slack at age 40 and still be "cheap?" You can't! Salary, like law, is based on precedent. Each job you get should pay more up until you decide to downshift or semi-retire to some other field. Each year you work, you should be getting at least a cost-of-living type increase. If you're aren't thinking about retirement, you aren't doing things right and even if you're living paycheck to paycheck, do you have any plan for how you're going to keep on if your paychecks get smaller instead of larger? Why have a career if this basic concept isn't followed? So "that's just a labor market" is true, but a labor market that continuously discounts experience all the while demanding more of it is one that is completely out of touch with reality and with the reality of why we work at all and what its purpose for us is! People go through tragedies in their lives--either personal ones or shared ones due to recessions (layoffs, changes in what skills are marketable). You must demand top dollar for your skills for as long as you can because your chances of "making it up later" or recovering from a hardship are nil.