5 ms·

Not Windows' fault, though. It's up to developers to update their apps to handle DPI scaling.

by erikbye 9y ago

AsyncAwait 9y ago
Well, that's the same for Linux really, both GTK3 and Qt5 support 4K screens.
- erikbye 9y ago
  Absolutely it is. Such a simple fix too, at least in terms of avoiding things becoming too small. In terms of clarity and scaling up pixel-based GUI elements like icons you need to do a bit more work (new icons, double the res).
bunderbunder 9y ago
True, and I'm pretty sure the reason's the same for Linux. Doesn't affect my opinion on the usability of the platform, though. For my part, I got my work to do, so I ultimately ended up back on a Mac (yet again, ugh) because, for all Apple's recent problems, none of them bother me as much as things like, "I just flat-out can't use this app that I need without a microscope."
- erikbye 9y ago
  Regarding usability, been a little while since I've used macOS now, so sincere question: Is it still true that you need third-party software to do keyboard-based window management? Even just something as simple as Windows' Win+arrow keys.
  - gargravarr 9y ago
    I think it is. I haven't dug much into Sierra, but there's no obvious window management options. I remember using BetterTouchTool on Snow Leopard to Mavericks which did the job very well, but I think you're correct in that there's still no native support.
  - oneweekwonder 9y ago
    Like spectacle[0]? I'm not on the latest macOS but I believe you still need a app like this for macOS. [0]: https://www.spectacleapp.com/ https://www.spectacleapp.com/
  - wlesieutre 9y ago
    Yes, still true. Lots of options though. Divvy, Spectacle, ShiftIt, Moom, Amythest, SizeUp, Cinch, Slate, Flexiglass, probably others. If you want something very configurable and don't mind writing some Lua, Hammerspoon is a fun utility.
    - theossuary 9y ago
      I'll throw Mjolnir in there too. As somebody who came from a pretty customized Awesome installation on Arch to Mac OSX, Mjolnir scratches that same itch. It allows you to completely script your hotkeys with lua, do grid based layouts, etc. https://github.com/sdegutis/mjolnir https://github.com/sdegutis/mjolnir
  - lucasverra 9y ago
    spectacle works fine indeed, out of the box windows management for halfsys and quarter of the screens. Need more fancy ? http://www.mactrast.com/2017/04/review-mosaic-simple-window-managment-mac/ http://www.mactrast.com/2017/04/review-mosaic-simple-window-... --> cannot vouch as not installed yet
  - ivanhoe 9y ago
    hell, you still need a 3rd party tool to do something as essential as middle click on the touchpad... but you install a few tools and tweak a few things and then it works wonderful...
- monsieurbanana 9y ago
  Your argument is insidious. You chose to use a Mac to avoid HiDPI problems, I chose to use a normal DPI laptop.
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > Doesn't affect my opinion on the usability of the platform, though. For my part, I got my work to do, so I ultimately ended up back on a Mac (yet again, ugh) because, for all Apple's recent problems, none of them bother me as much as things like, "I just flat-out can't use this app that I need without a microscope." Well, at that point, you're no longer using 4K (even if you use a 4K external monitor, OS X doesn't render at that resolution by default). Incidentally, if you do try to render OS X in 4K, it looks horrible, for the exact same reasons. In my experience, the 4K experience is actually strongest on Linux, followed by Windows. OS X comes in last.
criddell 9y ago
Windows is getting better at high DPI even for non-DPI aware applications. It's weird though. Windows seems to do different things depending on the scaling factor and how you set the factor. 125% might look terrible but 150% is tack sharp. Setting 125% as a custom scale factor does something different than choosing 125% as a standard scale factor. Usually, you have to log out and log back in after changing the scale, but not always. When you are working over remote desktop, it tries very hard to stop you from changing the scale factor. I'm not even sure if you can anymore.
- erikbye 9y ago
  Yes, I've definitely seen blurry fonts on 125% in some apps. Creators Update and Fall Creators Update both have a lot of scaling fixes and those might help for some of the apps. Have you updated?
  - criddell 9y ago
    Yeah, I'm entirely up to date. I think we are in agreement - Windows 10 does a pretty good job, it just isn't clear to me exactly what it is doing and how the different settings affect the display.
- user5994461 9y ago
  I attribute that to a simple limitation of physics. Scaling a pixel to one pixel and a bit of another pixel is not physically possible, there is a hard physical unit[1]. They are some zoom ratios that will smooth well to the screen and some that won't. I think it's mostly noticed on text, the eye is incredibly good at noticing minimal variations. [1] Actually, font rendering on windows is already on a subpixel level. A pixel square is made of 3 rectangular colored sub pixels.

Not Windows' fault, though. It's up to developers to update their apps to handle DPI scaling.

AsyncAwait 9y ago

Well, that's the same for Linux really, both GTK3 and Qt5 support 4K screens.

erikbye 9y ago
Absolutely it is. Such a simple fix too, at least in terms of avoiding things becoming too small. In terms of clarity and scaling up pixel-based GUI elements like icons you need to do a bit more work (new icons, double the res).

bunderbunder 9y ago

True, and I'm pretty sure the reason's the same for Linux. Doesn't affect my opinion on the usability of the platform, though. For my part, I got my work to do, so I ultimately ended up back on a Mac (yet again, ugh) because, for all Apple's recent problems, none of them bother me as much as things like, "I just flat-out can't use this app that I need without a microscope."

erikbye 9y ago
Regarding usability, been a little while since I've used macOS now, so sincere question: Is it still true that you need third-party software to do keyboard-based window management? Even just something as simple as Windows' Win+arrow keys.
- gargravarr 9y ago
  I think it is. I haven't dug much into Sierra, but there's no obvious window management options. I remember using BetterTouchTool on Snow Leopard to Mavericks which did the job very well, but I think you're correct in that there's still no native support.
- oneweekwonder 9y ago
  Like spectacle[0]? I'm not on the latest macOS but I believe you still need a app like this for macOS. [0]: https://www.spectacleapp.com/ https://www.spectacleapp.com/
- wlesieutre 9y ago
  Yes, still true. Lots of options though. Divvy, Spectacle, ShiftIt, Moom, Amythest, SizeUp, Cinch, Slate, Flexiglass, probably others. If you want something very configurable and don't mind writing some Lua, Hammerspoon is a fun utility.
  - theossuary 9y ago
    I'll throw Mjolnir in there too. As somebody who came from a pretty customized Awesome installation on Arch to Mac OSX, Mjolnir scratches that same itch. It allows you to completely script your hotkeys with lua, do grid based layouts, etc. https://github.com/sdegutis/mjolnir https://github.com/sdegutis/mjolnir
- lucasverra 9y ago
  spectacle works fine indeed, out of the box windows management for halfsys and quarter of the screens. Need more fancy ? http://www.mactrast.com/2017/04/review-mosaic-simple-window-managment-mac/ http://www.mactrast.com/2017/04/review-mosaic-simple-window-... --> cannot vouch as not installed yet
- ivanhoe 9y ago
  hell, you still need a 3rd party tool to do something as essential as middle click on the touchpad... but you install a few tools and tweak a few things and then it works wonderful...
monsieurbanana 9y ago
Your argument is insidious. You chose to use a Mac to avoid HiDPI problems, I chose to use a normal DPI laptop.
chimeracoder 9y ago
> Doesn't affect my opinion on the usability of the platform, though. For my part, I got my work to do, so I ultimately ended up back on a Mac (yet again, ugh) because, for all Apple's recent problems, none of them bother me as much as things like, "I just flat-out can't use this app that I need without a microscope." Well, at that point, you're no longer using 4K (even if you use a 4K external monitor, OS X doesn't render at that resolution by default). Incidentally, if you do try to render OS X in 4K, it looks horrible, for the exact same reasons. In my experience, the 4K experience is actually strongest on Linux, followed by Windows. OS X comes in last.

criddell 9y ago

Windows is getting better at high DPI even for non-DPI aware applications. It's weird though. Windows seems to do different things depending on the scaling factor and how you set the factor. 125% might look terrible but 150% is tack sharp. Setting 125% as a custom scale factor does something different than choosing 125% as a standard scale factor. Usually, you have to log out and log back in after changing the scale, but not always. When you are working over remote desktop, it tries very hard to stop you from changing the scale factor. I'm not even sure if you can anymore.

erikbye 9y ago
Yes, I've definitely seen blurry fonts on 125% in some apps. Creators Update and Fall Creators Update both have a lot of scaling fixes and those might help for some of the apps. Have you updated?
- criddell 9y ago
  Yeah, I'm entirely up to date. I think we are in agreement - Windows 10 does a pretty good job, it just isn't clear to me exactly what it is doing and how the different settings affect the display.
user5994461 9y ago
I attribute that to a simple limitation of physics. Scaling a pixel to one pixel and a bit of another pixel is not physically possible, there is a hard physical unit[1]. They are some zoom ratios that will smooth well to the screen and some that won't. I think it's mostly noticed on text, the eye is incredibly good at noticing minimal variations. [1] Actually, font rendering on windows is already on a subpixel level. A pixel square is made of 3 rectangular colored sub pixels.