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As another 20+ (24 actually, 0.99pl15) Linux user let me counter: with the Linux subsystem for Windows there's no reason to wrestle with Linux any more. While L

by chx 9y ago

As another 20+ (24 actually, 0.99pl15) Linux user let me counter: with the Linux subsystem for Windows there's no reason to wrestle with Linux any more. While Linux certainly works on laptops it doesn't work well. Wifi and battery life are absymal and for me seemingly every other update either breaks the printer half or the scanner half of the MFC device (and if not, then it's time for another bluetooth breakage, you can search Arch forums on how many times BT broke on me). Let's not even mention that I simply can't log into one of clients VPN network as F5 doesn't seem to have a Linux client capable of web login (previously it was a Firefox extension but of course that capability needed to be obsoleted). So now I need to use my Android phone to VPN in and tether it... madness. For many years (roughly since systemd) I hoped there's a kind of "modern Linux handbook" especially when people come up with solutions to problems seemingly totally out of nowhere but turns out, there's nothing. Some people have knowledge of narrow areas but the entire modern Linux is a frighteningly complex monster. And when you realize your fractions of knowledge makes you one of the experts, that's even worse: when I ask about DisplayLink in Linux, I am redirected to the relevant Arch Wiki page where the meat of the page was written by me years ago... I set up Windows 10 to my taste https://github.com/chx/chx.github.io/wiki/How-I-set-up-my-Windows-10-(coming-from-Linux) https://github.com/chx/chx.github.io/wiki/How-I-set-up-my-Wi... and it's a better world now. Drivers and GUI programs are running in Windows, daemons and CLI tools are running in Linux, switching to a brief game session is trivial.

babuskov 9y ago
> you can search Arch Isn't Arch specifically for users who don't mind things breaking and going deep into internals to fix it?
- smcl 9y ago
  Correct but that has caused their wiki to be one of the better places to find out how to setup and configure services, hardware, etc even if you have to do a little tweaking to the instructions for your own distribution
- jorgemf 9y ago
  Incorrect, I break arch less times than Ubuntu and I use it daily while I use Ubuntu casually
  - majewsky 9y ago
    Arch's KISS attitude is really helpful for that. Whenever I have to deal with a Debian/Ubuntu system, I'm sort of weary of "apt install"ing any daemons because of the autoconfigure magic that's going on in dpkg. With Arch, installing a package just unpacks the package files and runs a few innocuous post-install hooks, mostly to rebuild indexes (mandb, fontconfig, etc.) and compile DKMS-based kernel modules. But nothing potentially destructive like `systemctl start postfix`. Also, it installs exactly what you want, instead of dozens of tangentially-related "suggested packages". If you `apt install rsyslog`, it pulls in an entire MTA because somewhere deep in rsyslog, there is an option that might send emails, so Debian in its unending wisdom determines that you MUST HAVE an MTA beyond this point. In Arch, `pacman -S rsyslog` installs just rsyslog and a few required shared libraries.
    - eeZah7Ux 9y ago
      There is no "autoconfigure magic". Daemons install standard configuration files and start by default. Autostart can be disabled, that's all.
    - icebraining 9y ago
      Also, it installs exactly what you want, instead of dozens of tangentially-related "suggested packages". So does Debian, if that's what you tell it you want (either on the config file or as a CLI argument). Even without that, while it may suggest a full MTA by default, you can ask it for another solution and it'll suggest a simple mailer (like bsd-mailx). I don't dispute that Arch's defaults guide you to a simpler system, but it's not really hard to start from Debian netinstall and add just what you need, package by package.
      - majewsky 9y ago
        > you can ask it for another solution and it'll suggest a simple mailer Exactly. The correct solution for me is "no mailer at all".
- erikbye 9y ago
  I think it's well-suited to anyone who despises bloat. To anyone who wants to run a resource-efficient and performant system with just the parts they need. And honestly, most users will never need to dig deep. Most users will only, occasionally, need to follow a few steps on the well-explained Wiki. More of my thoughts on Arch: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15246521 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15246521 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15246781 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15246781
  - suby 9y ago
    I tried arch out in 2016. Over a period of two weeks, 3 separate updates broke one thing or another. In my 4 years using mint / ubuntu, an update broke my machine once, and that was when the power went out during an update. Arch apparently works great for a lot of people, but I'd urge caution.
    - erikbye 9y ago
      Did it break in an unrecoverable way, or was it just an inconvenience? Arch is a rolling release that many choose to update daily, or on a fixed schedule, like once a week. That updates sometimes can break a thing or two, out of hundreds of updates, is to be expected. If that sounds scary to you, Arch is certainly not for you. That said, it has rarely happened to me, and any breakage is usually minor and easily fixed. It's not like you have to even figure out how; it's laid out for you on the Wiki, Forum or Arch's homepage. My experience with other distros has been far more troubling, except Slackware. Arch's strengths easily outweigh occasional inconveniences. Not having to deal with anything Ubuntu or Canonical is a great bonus.
      - mcgrath_sh 9y ago
        I originally went Slackware when diving into Linux. Manual dependency resolution was just a step too far. Installing Calibre became a nightmare. I turned to Arch and have been very happy. I simply don’t have the time to properly maintain a Slackware box. I do really like it though.
haspok 9y ago
Do you have a Dell XPS 13 (any version)? Because I do (a 9343), and I don't have any of the problems you listed above - in fact, I spend far less time managing my laptop since I switched to Ubuntu. I started off with 14.04 then switched to 16.04 and I upgraded to an 4.9 LTS kernel in January. That's about it. I have no issues with battery life, wifi, or BT or anything else. The first ~6 months of 2014 was a rough ride, because the hardware was so new there was no proper support for it in the kernel, but the team @ Dell managed to upstream all the required stuff, so depending on their custom Ubuntu release is no longer necessary. Everything should just work out of the box.
- alphadevx 9y ago
  Same for me: Dell XPS 13 user, Fedora user, it all "just works" including after a recent Fedora 27 upgrade, although in fairness I did have to replace the Broadcom wi-fi card with an Intel one, due to Intel having far superior Linux drivers: http://www.alphadevx.com/a/510-Replacing-a-Broadcom-wireless-adapter-in-a-Dell-XPS-13-Developer-Edition-with-an-Intel-one http://www.alphadevx.com/a/510-Replacing-a-Broadcom-wireless... Once I done that, I now have the perfect developer laptop (in my opinion of course :-) )
ficklepickle 9y ago
Install tlp on Ubuntu/mint. My asus ux305 gets a solid 10 hours under light use.
ekianjo 9y ago
By staying on Windows you are however not helping the Linux cause. Having a functional FOSS OS is a lot more desirable for the future of computing.
craigsmansion 9y ago
> there's no reason to wrestle with Linux any more. Unless one wasn't "wrestling" with Linux in the first place, because things tend to just work these days. > While Linux certainly works on laptops it doesn't work well. Wifi and battery life are absymal That's blatantly untrue. Given the right laptop, Linux is on par or excels. Given the wrong laptop, an install from scratch of the Windows operating system is likely to be far worse. > problems seemingly totally out of nowhere So problems that arose without any changes to the system? > there's nothing. Well, there's full access to your own system. > Drivers [..] are running in Windows Never run old hardware or peripherals? Because if you do Windows is a world of pain filled with drivers sourced from questionable download sites. I'll assume good faith here instead of astroturfing, but you might want to tone down the unwarranted praise of X over Y when describing your satisfaction with your current setup, especially when you're apparently not really familiar with Y.
- sigi45 9y ago
  I have plenty of experience with linux on laptops and windows. Yes it is very nice to have 1, 2 or even 5 Laptops which work with linux. Windows still runs on more devices, better. I had never the issue, that i had to sit it out that a specific bug came into the release cycle of a windows update but i had this 4 times in 3 years with arch linux. And i also have a strange experience with linux: One ssd does work flawless under windows and under linux it creates minilags of the whole system. While i like my linux machine and i use it daily @work and also daily @private laptop, it takes more effort and more knowledge than windows.
  - rbanffy 9y ago
    > Yes it is very nice to have 1, 2 or even 5 Laptops which work with linux. It's been a long time I haven't seen a general purpose laptop or desktop that didn't work flawlessly with both Ubuntu and Fedora. The only one I have is the MacBook Pro in front of me, but it comes with a decent OS anyway. > Windows still runs on more devices, better. Can it delete open files now?
    - 9y ago
dotancohen 9y ago
As another 16+ (2001, not sure which kernel) Linux user let me counter: with Ubuntu there's no reason to wrestle with Linux any more. Wifi, Bluetooth, HD resolutions, keyboard buttons, printers, everything just seems to work in Ubuntu, and this has been the case for quite a few years now.
pkolaczk 9y ago
"Wifi and battery life are absymal" With Dell Precision 5520, I get much better battery life on Linux kernel 4.14 than on Windows 10. No Wifi problems as well.
sjellis 9y ago
"While Linux certainly works on laptops it doesn't work well." Part of the issue is that using Linux exposes you much more directly to the quality of the hardware (and the associated firmware and drivers). The hardware that "just works" on Windows might be horribly engineered, but Windows and the proprietary drivers might cover over the problems. On Linux, bad hardware is more likely to just work badly.
LaGrange 9y ago
Ah, WSL. That sounds great. Docker works, let's try to edit something without messing up the permissions... $ git clone ssh://blahblahblah.space/repo.git [...] $ code repo VS Code opens... C:\windows\System32. Because the contents of the VolFS contents aren't available to Windows applications. So, you have to use /mnt/c, which is using Windows permissions (so, everything ends up 0777 for example). That was disappointing.
- psy-q 9y ago
  Microsoft explicitly warns people in big red letters never to open any WSL files from Windows. I'm not sure if that will ever be possible.
chx 9y ago
Ps. DisplayPort MST support is spotty at best.

by chx 9y ago

babuskov 9y ago

> you can search Arch Isn't Arch specifically for users who don't mind things breaking and going deep into internals to fix it?

smcl 9y ago
Correct but that has caused their wiki to be one of the better places to find out how to setup and configure services, hardware, etc even if you have to do a little tweaking to the instructions for your own distribution
jorgemf 9y ago
Incorrect, I break arch less times than Ubuntu and I use it daily while I use Ubuntu casually
- majewsky 9y ago
  Arch's KISS attitude is really helpful for that. Whenever I have to deal with a Debian/Ubuntu system, I'm sort of weary of "apt install"ing any daemons because of the autoconfigure magic that's going on in dpkg. With Arch, installing a package just unpacks the package files and runs a few innocuous post-install hooks, mostly to rebuild indexes (mandb, fontconfig, etc.) and compile DKMS-based kernel modules. But nothing potentially destructive like `systemctl start postfix`. Also, it installs exactly what you want, instead of dozens of tangentially-related "suggested packages". If you `apt install rsyslog`, it pulls in an entire MTA because somewhere deep in rsyslog, there is an option that might send emails, so Debian in its unending wisdom determines that you MUST HAVE an MTA beyond this point. In Arch, `pacman -S rsyslog` installs just rsyslog and a few required shared libraries.
  - eeZah7Ux 9y ago
    There is no "autoconfigure magic". Daemons install standard configuration files and start by default. Autostart can be disabled, that's all.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Also, it installs exactly what you want, instead of dozens of tangentially-related "suggested packages". So does Debian, if that's what you tell it you want (either on the config file or as a CLI argument). Even without that, while it may suggest a full MTA by default, you can ask it for another solution and it'll suggest a simple mailer (like bsd-mailx). I don't dispute that Arch's defaults guide you to a simpler system, but it's not really hard to start from Debian netinstall and add just what you need, package by package.
    - majewsky 9y ago
      > you can ask it for another solution and it'll suggest a simple mailer Exactly. The correct solution for me is "no mailer at all".
erikbye 9y ago
I think it's well-suited to anyone who despises bloat. To anyone who wants to run a resource-efficient and performant system with just the parts they need. And honestly, most users will never need to dig deep. Most users will only, occasionally, need to follow a few steps on the well-explained Wiki. More of my thoughts on Arch: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15246521 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15246521 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15246781 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15246781
- suby 9y ago
  I tried arch out in 2016. Over a period of two weeks, 3 separate updates broke one thing or another. In my 4 years using mint / ubuntu, an update broke my machine once, and that was when the power went out during an update. Arch apparently works great for a lot of people, but I'd urge caution.
  - erikbye 9y ago
    Did it break in an unrecoverable way, or was it just an inconvenience? Arch is a rolling release that many choose to update daily, or on a fixed schedule, like once a week. That updates sometimes can break a thing or two, out of hundreds of updates, is to be expected. If that sounds scary to you, Arch is certainly not for you. That said, it has rarely happened to me, and any breakage is usually minor and easily fixed. It's not like you have to even figure out how; it's laid out for you on the Wiki, Forum or Arch's homepage. My experience with other distros has been far more troubling, except Slackware. Arch's strengths easily outweigh occasional inconveniences. Not having to deal with anything Ubuntu or Canonical is a great bonus.
    - mcgrath_sh 9y ago
      I originally went Slackware when diving into Linux. Manual dependency resolution was just a step too far. Installing Calibre became a nightmare. I turned to Arch and have been very happy. I simply don’t have the time to properly maintain a Slackware box. I do really like it though.

haspok 9y ago

Do you have a Dell XPS 13 (any version)? Because I do (a 9343), and I don't have any of the problems you listed above - in fact, I spend far less time managing my laptop since I switched to Ubuntu. I started off with 14.04 then switched to 16.04 and I upgraded to an 4.9 LTS kernel in January. That's about it. I have no issues with battery life, wifi, or BT or anything else. The first ~6 months of 2014 was a rough ride, because the hardware was so new there was no proper support for it in the kernel, but the team @ Dell managed to upstream all the required stuff, so depending on their custom Ubuntu release is no longer necessary. Everything should just work out of the box.

alphadevx 9y ago
Same for me: Dell XPS 13 user, Fedora user, it all "just works" including after a recent Fedora 27 upgrade, although in fairness I did have to replace the Broadcom wi-fi card with an Intel one, due to Intel having far superior Linux drivers: http://www.alphadevx.com/a/510-Replacing-a-Broadcom-wireless-adapter-in-a-Dell-XPS-13-Developer-Edition-with-an-Intel-one http://www.alphadevx.com/a/510-Replacing-a-Broadcom-wireless... Once I done that, I now have the perfect developer laptop (in my opinion of course :-) )

ficklepickle 9y ago

Install tlp on Ubuntu/mint. My asus ux305 gets a solid 10 hours under light use.

ekianjo 9y ago

By staying on Windows you are however not helping the Linux cause. Having a functional FOSS OS is a lot more desirable for the future of computing.

craigsmansion 9y ago

> there's no reason to wrestle with Linux any more. Unless one wasn't "wrestling" with Linux in the first place, because things tend to just work these days. > While Linux certainly works on laptops it doesn't work well. Wifi and battery life are absymal That's blatantly untrue. Given the right laptop, Linux is on par or excels. Given the wrong laptop, an install from scratch of the Windows operating system is likely to be far worse. > problems seemingly totally out of nowhere So problems that arose without any changes to the system? > there's nothing. Well, there's full access to your own system. > Drivers [..] are running in Windows Never run old hardware or peripherals? Because if you do Windows is a world of pain filled with drivers sourced from questionable download sites. I'll assume good faith here instead of astroturfing, but you might want to tone down the unwarranted praise of X over Y when describing your satisfaction with your current setup, especially when you're apparently not really familiar with Y.

sigi45 9y ago
I have plenty of experience with linux on laptops and windows. Yes it is very nice to have 1, 2 or even 5 Laptops which work with linux. Windows still runs on more devices, better. I had never the issue, that i had to sit it out that a specific bug came into the release cycle of a windows update but i had this 4 times in 3 years with arch linux. And i also have a strange experience with linux: One ssd does work flawless under windows and under linux it creates minilags of the whole system. While i like my linux machine and i use it daily @work and also daily @private laptop, it takes more effort and more knowledge than windows.
- rbanffy 9y ago
  > Yes it is very nice to have 1, 2 or even 5 Laptops which work with linux. It's been a long time I haven't seen a general purpose laptop or desktop that didn't work flawlessly with both Ubuntu and Fedora. The only one I have is the MacBook Pro in front of me, but it comes with a decent OS anyway. > Windows still runs on more devices, better. Can it delete open files now?
  - 9y ago

dotancohen 9y ago

As another 16+ (2001, not sure which kernel) Linux user let me counter: with Ubuntu there's no reason to wrestle with Linux any more. Wifi, Bluetooth, HD resolutions, keyboard buttons, printers, everything just seems to work in Ubuntu, and this has been the case for quite a few years now.

pkolaczk 9y ago

"Wifi and battery life are absymal" With Dell Precision 5520, I get much better battery life on Linux kernel 4.14 than on Windows 10. No Wifi problems as well.

sjellis 9y ago

"While Linux certainly works on laptops it doesn't work well." Part of the issue is that using Linux exposes you much more directly to the quality of the hardware (and the associated firmware and drivers). The hardware that "just works" on Windows might be horribly engineered, but Windows and the proprietary drivers might cover over the problems. On Linux, bad hardware is more likely to just work badly.

LaGrange 9y ago

Ah, WSL. That sounds great. Docker works, let's try to edit something without messing up the permissions... $ git clone ssh://blahblahblah.space/repo.git [...] $ code repo VS Code opens... C:\windows\System32. Because the contents of the VolFS contents aren't available to Windows applications. So, you have to use /mnt/c, which is using Windows permissions (so, everything ends up 0777 for example). That was disappointing.

psy-q 9y ago
Microsoft explicitly warns people in big red letters never to open any WSL files from Windows. I'm not sure if that will ever be possible.

chx 9y ago

Ps. DisplayPort MST support is spotty at best.