5 ms·

meanwhile in Thinkpad land... honestly I never understand why people go for Macbooks or XPS. X/T model user since 7 generations. I did look at the XPS but ther

meanwhile in Thinkpad land... honestly I never understand why people go for Macbooks or XPS. X/T model user since 7 generations. I did look at the XPS but there are so many disadvantages with those modern one-body-all-closed-no-mods laptops. Before you down vote me, I still applaud Dells decision to get Ubuntu Laptops out there. But I don't really see what the big game changer is whether a laptop comes preinstalled with Ubuntu or if I do it myself.

pmontra 9y ago
Probably it means that everything works well since day 0. I bought a HP ZBook in 2014. I wiped out Windows and installed Ubuntu. It worked but there were some problems with the backlight control keys. There were workarounds and everything got fixed after a few months with some new version of the kernel. I expect zero problems if the pc came with Linux.
unhammer 9y ago
> I don't really see what the big game changer is whether a laptop comes preinstalled with Ubuntu or if I do it myself. It means a certain level of support. They're actively trying to make this thing run Linux well, instead of leaving it up to "the community". And you don't have to go reading forums or blog posts before buying just to figure out if it will have some stupid UEFI bug or whatever that makes installing Linux on it a real hassle. Although I prefer Thinkpads, I very much understand why people want Macbook-like computers – they look quite nice! You shouldn't have to fit into some black-and-blue mold just to run Linux.
- NiklasMort 9y ago
  Lenovo did the same in the early days at least, they were very aware of having to produce high compatibility laptops. Not so much for the point of open source but for business usage which sometimes required non-windows OS's. But sure I applaud Dell. The world should rid of Windows.
  - castle-bravo 9y ago
    No longer, apparently. A colleague if mine has had some headaches with ubuntu on his legion Y520, including no wifi connectivity at work. My T430 has no problems though.
    - pritambaral 9y ago
      AFAIK, the Y-series line is not a ThinkPad line. What the parent said applied to the ThinkPad line, which is treated differently by Lenovo to their consumer lines.
- speedplane 9y ago
  As a practical matter, would be nicer if they could just load windows and have Ubuntu automatically loaded with a well working Ubuntu virtual machine image where everything works (e.g., webcam, sound, peripherals, etc.).
- tobltobs 9y ago
  When I bought my XPS13 the trackpad, sound and keyboard haven't been working reliable. The thing has been unusable. Contacted support and they send me a link how to reflash my BIOS and install a newer version of Ubuntu. It seems you get "a certain level of support", but I fail to see how this is better then the usual "buy Thinkpad, install Linux, use Google if you have problems" cycle is.
mschuster91 9y ago
> honestly I never understand why people go for Macbooks or XPS Touchpad. No Windows laptop I know even comes close to both size and functionality of the touchpad of a Macbook - although I have to admit I won't get a recent Macbook, because the keyboard is crap, the touchpad is too big for my opinion and no USB-A = no Macbook for me.
- dkersten 9y ago
  > the touchpad is too big for my opinion You won't notice it though and will be glad of the size when you do. I LOVE the bigger touchpad on the newer Macbooks (but its about the only thing about it I love. Keyboard is absolute dirt, as you said, no USB-A is ridiculous given that all of my devices are USB-A, the touch bar is useless and virtual function keys on touch bar are a very poor substitute for real function keys... but the touchpad size really isn't an issue, you can use how much or little as you like and the palm rejection works perfectly)
- NiklasMort 9y ago
  Well personally I oppose touchpads, I tried them all (even the new macbook ones), they all don't work well, I love my thinkpad trackpoint, works much better. The touchpad is the first thing I disable after OS installation.
- pcurve 9y ago
  I use thinkpad and macbook for work and imho thinkpad's red tracking nub trumps macbook touchpad. No need to do ballerina dance with your 3-4 fingers. 1 finger... 1 thumb... and track to infinity.
speedplane 9y ago
> honestly I never understand why people go for Macbooks or XPS They have an excellent performance with relatively easy travel size weight. What's not to like? (disclosure: I own an XPS)
m45t3r 9y ago
Support, and in this case is not the kind "I can't install Linux on this laptop", but more likely we will fix your hardware issues without trying to question that you installed a non-supported OS. Our company recently bought Dell laptops with Linux pre-installed, I had a hardware issue with sound (basically, neither Windows or Linux recognized the sound board, showing that this was a hardware problem). I entered in contact with Dell support, and even after saying that I was using an unsupported OS (Arch Linux, instead of original Ubuntu) they happily RMA'd the whole thing and nowadays the notebook is working without issues.
dest 9y ago
> But I don't really see what the big game changer is whether a laptop comes preinstalled with Ubuntu or if I do it myself. A laptop sold with Ubuntu means that you don't have to pay for Windows (>100€). So it's cheaper. Furthermore, you have guarantees that linux support will be better than average.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
robert_foss 9y ago
Having owned a Thinkpad (T420) I can tell you that the recent XPS line has really solid hardware. It has a Macbook level quality feel. The T420 I owned on the other hand had a rather plasticy feel.
lotsofpulp 9y ago
The Macbook's integration with iMessage and the rest of my iPhone is a huge plus for me. Super convenient to be able to message while working, plus battery life is great, and in emergencies I can just walk into an Apple store and get it fixed or swapped out quickly.
mnw21cam 9y ago
> I don't really see what the big game changer is whether a laptop comes preinstalled with Ubuntu or if I do it myself. I personally cannot fathom why anyone would ever use a factory-installed operating system of any kind. It's only your computer if you installed it yourself.
- lmm 9y ago
  There are plenty of places a hostile manufacturer could hide malware, having installed the OS yourself doesn't guarantee anything. Done right, a manufacturer-installed OS can have everything set up right for the specific hardware of that machine, which is a much nicer experience than having to check the details yourself. (A lot of manufacturers don't do it right of course).
rlpb 9y ago
> But I don't really see what the big game changer is whether a laptop comes preinstalled with Ubuntu or if I do it myself. The game changer (IMHO) is that it becomes a sustainable economic model for Linux users to buy modern (rather than out of date) Linux laptops with good driver support. I'm aware that Thinkpads generally have excellent Linux support for the basics; I suspect that this is because of a combination of a reasonably supportive manufacturer (in a not hostile sense) and the number of Linux kernel developers who use Thinkpads. However, what about buying a new Thinkpad that just came out? Now I'm not sure whether everything will work and what non-working bits will continue to not work for years. With a pre-installed Linux, I have more confidence that everything will work from day one, and (if this continues) that this is a sustainable model. Because some of my money actually gets allocated against Linux support, rather than being misdirected to Windows support.

pmontra 9y ago

Probably it means that everything works well since day 0. I bought a HP ZBook in 2014. I wiped out Windows and installed Ubuntu. It worked but there were some problems with the backlight control keys. There were workarounds and everything got fixed after a few months with some new version of the kernel. I expect zero problems if the pc came with Linux.

unhammer 9y ago

> I don't really see what the big game changer is whether a laptop comes preinstalled with Ubuntu or if I do it myself. It means a certain level of support. They're actively trying to make this thing run Linux well, instead of leaving it up to "the community". And you don't have to go reading forums or blog posts before buying just to figure out if it will have some stupid UEFI bug or whatever that makes installing Linux on it a real hassle. Although I prefer Thinkpads, I very much understand why people want Macbook-like computers – they look quite nice! You shouldn't have to fit into some black-and-blue mold just to run Linux.

NiklasMort 9y ago
Lenovo did the same in the early days at least, they were very aware of having to produce high compatibility laptops. Not so much for the point of open source but for business usage which sometimes required non-windows OS's. But sure I applaud Dell. The world should rid of Windows.
- castle-bravo 9y ago
  No longer, apparently. A colleague if mine has had some headaches with ubuntu on his legion Y520, including no wifi connectivity at work. My T430 has no problems though.
  - pritambaral 9y ago
    AFAIK, the Y-series line is not a ThinkPad line. What the parent said applied to the ThinkPad line, which is treated differently by Lenovo to their consumer lines.
speedplane 9y ago
As a practical matter, would be nicer if they could just load windows and have Ubuntu automatically loaded with a well working Ubuntu virtual machine image where everything works (e.g., webcam, sound, peripherals, etc.).
tobltobs 9y ago
When I bought my XPS13 the trackpad, sound and keyboard haven't been working reliable. The thing has been unusable. Contacted support and they send me a link how to reflash my BIOS and install a newer version of Ubuntu. It seems you get "a certain level of support", but I fail to see how this is better then the usual "buy Thinkpad, install Linux, use Google if you have problems" cycle is.

mschuster91 9y ago

> honestly I never understand why people go for Macbooks or XPS Touchpad. No Windows laptop I know even comes close to both size and functionality of the touchpad of a Macbook - although I have to admit I won't get a recent Macbook, because the keyboard is crap, the touchpad is too big for my opinion and no USB-A = no Macbook for me.

dkersten 9y ago
> the touchpad is too big for my opinion You won't notice it though and will be glad of the size when you do. I LOVE the bigger touchpad on the newer Macbooks (but its about the only thing about it I love. Keyboard is absolute dirt, as you said, no USB-A is ridiculous given that all of my devices are USB-A, the touch bar is useless and virtual function keys on touch bar are a very poor substitute for real function keys... but the touchpad size really isn't an issue, you can use how much or little as you like and the palm rejection works perfectly)
NiklasMort 9y ago
Well personally I oppose touchpads, I tried them all (even the new macbook ones), they all don't work well, I love my thinkpad trackpoint, works much better. The touchpad is the first thing I disable after OS installation.
pcurve 9y ago
I use thinkpad and macbook for work and imho thinkpad's red tracking nub trumps macbook touchpad. No need to do ballerina dance with your 3-4 fingers. 1 finger... 1 thumb... and track to infinity.

speedplane 9y ago

> honestly I never understand why people go for Macbooks or XPS They have an excellent performance with relatively easy travel size weight. What's not to like? (disclosure: I own an XPS)

m45t3r 9y ago

Support, and in this case is not the kind "I can't install Linux on this laptop", but more likely we will fix your hardware issues without trying to question that you installed a non-supported OS. Our company recently bought Dell laptops with Linux pre-installed, I had a hardware issue with sound (basically, neither Windows or Linux recognized the sound board, showing that this was a hardware problem). I entered in contact with Dell support, and even after saying that I was using an unsupported OS (Arch Linux, instead of original Ubuntu) they happily RMA'd the whole thing and nowadays the notebook is working without issues.

dest 9y ago

> But I don't really see what the big game changer is whether a laptop comes preinstalled with Ubuntu or if I do it myself. A laptop sold with Ubuntu means that you don't have to pay for Windows (>100€). So it's cheaper. Furthermore, you have guarantees that linux support will be better than average.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

robert_foss 9y ago

Having owned a Thinkpad (T420) I can tell you that the recent XPS line has really solid hardware. It has a Macbook level quality feel. The T420 I owned on the other hand had a rather plasticy feel.

lotsofpulp 9y ago

The Macbook's integration with iMessage and the rest of my iPhone is a huge plus for me. Super convenient to be able to message while working, plus battery life is great, and in emergencies I can just walk into an Apple store and get it fixed or swapped out quickly.

mnw21cam 9y ago

> I don't really see what the big game changer is whether a laptop comes preinstalled with Ubuntu or if I do it myself. I personally cannot fathom why anyone would ever use a factory-installed operating system of any kind. It's only your computer if you installed it yourself.

lmm 9y ago
There are plenty of places a hostile manufacturer could hide malware, having installed the OS yourself doesn't guarantee anything. Done right, a manufacturer-installed OS can have everything set up right for the specific hardware of that machine, which is a much nicer experience than having to check the details yourself. (A lot of manufacturers don't do it right of course).

rlpb 9y ago

> But I don't really see what the big game changer is whether a laptop comes preinstalled with Ubuntu or if I do it myself. The game changer (IMHO) is that it becomes a sustainable economic model for Linux users to buy modern (rather than out of date) Linux laptops with good driver support. I'm aware that Thinkpads generally have excellent Linux support for the basics; I suspect that this is because of a combination of a reasonably supportive manufacturer (in a not hostile sense) and the number of Linux kernel developers who use Thinkpads. However, what about buying a new Thinkpad that just came out? Now I'm not sure whether everything will work and what non-working bits will continue to not work for years. With a pre-installed Linux, I have more confidence that everything will work from day one, and (if this continues) that this is a sustainable model. Because some of my money actually gets allocated against Linux support, rather than being misdirected to Windows support.