5 ms·

Huh? I'm starting projects in Python 2 because I know for once that the language won't move out from under me. I love it.

bastawhiz 9y ago
How do you plan on getting on when packages from PyPi stop supporting Python 2 at all? When Django, flask, numpy, requests, pandas, and more just don't even install? Will you just use ancient versions?
- bandrami 9y ago
  I don't understand: are you saying package authors are going to retroactively remove Python 2 support from existing versions? Why on earth would they do that? Scheme that I wrote in the 1980s still runs (and is running today in commercial systems). I have so little patience at this point for this "higher version = better" nonsense.
  - Ndymium 9y ago
    And what happens when security issues are inevitably discovered in the libraries that are not updated anymore? Sure it's probably OK if you write things that never interface with a network.
    - bandrami 9y ago
      Yes, no doubt there's going to be a crippling security vulnerability in this linear algebra library I use. Come on, you don't really believe that, do you?
      - Ndymium 9y ago
        I hope you don't use cryptography then, or networking, or image/file manipulation, or do anything with untrusted user input. If you're only doing algebra on an air gapped computer then why do you even worry? Programming languages and tools will evolve but nobody is forcing you to. Keep a local copy of what you need and be happy. Just don't assume any new libraries you might need will support your stack forever.
        bandrami 9y ago
        Still nowhere near as worrying as the business risk inherent in writing on a moving platform.
      - pavanky 9y ago
        Even if you are using Linear Algebra, older versions will not be optimized for newer architectures and instruction sets. This is a problem.
        bandrami 9y ago
        If they're not calling my own ATLAS then they aren't "optimized" in any real sense to begin with.
  - mynewtb 9y ago
    Will you backport security fixes and other significant bugs yourself?
    - bandrami 9y ago
      I don't have do that for my 20 year old Perl code or 30 year old Scheme code. Is the bare-bones Python interpreter really that much more full of vulnerabilities?
bandrami 9y ago
Also, Python is the only ecosystem I know of where people actually get angry that you use an old and stable version of the software, as those downvotes indicate.
- zbentley 9y ago
  Python might be an especially loud case, but I've seen a fair amount of that in some other areas, for example: - People getting angry at browser JS authors for coding in explicit support, or huge back-compat shims, for obsolete browsers and/or deprecated JS features. - People getting angry at Perl authors for writing code that depends on a stable hash iteration order (changed in Perl 5.26 or something? I forget). There was an extremely vocal (tiny) minority of users raising a big stink about the change in that behavior and claiming that it would break the universe. - C developers being criticized for coding to older (and often more verbose or tricky to use, but omnipresent) pure-POSIX macros and behavior rather than $latest_GNU_or_GCC_feature, which also had the pernicious effect of making things less portable, and damaging the culture of portability. There are more examples, but you get the idea.

bastawhiz 9y ago

How do you plan on getting on when packages from PyPi stop supporting Python 2 at all? When Django, flask, numpy, requests, pandas, and more just don't even install? Will you just use ancient versions?

bandrami 9y ago
I don't understand: are you saying package authors are going to retroactively remove Python 2 support from existing versions? Why on earth would they do that? Scheme that I wrote in the 1980s still runs (and is running today in commercial systems). I have so little patience at this point for this "higher version = better" nonsense.
- Ndymium 9y ago
  And what happens when security issues are inevitably discovered in the libraries that are not updated anymore? Sure it's probably OK if you write things that never interface with a network.
  - bandrami 9y ago
    Yes, no doubt there's going to be a crippling security vulnerability in this linear algebra library I use. Come on, you don't really believe that, do you?
    - Ndymium 9y ago
      I hope you don't use cryptography then, or networking, or image/file manipulation, or do anything with untrusted user input. If you're only doing algebra on an air gapped computer then why do you even worry? Programming languages and tools will evolve but nobody is forcing you to. Keep a local copy of what you need and be happy. Just don't assume any new libraries you might need will support your stack forever.
      - bandrami 9y ago
        Still nowhere near as worrying as the business risk inherent in writing on a moving platform.
    - pavanky 9y ago
      Even if you are using Linear Algebra, older versions will not be optimized for newer architectures and instruction sets. This is a problem.
      - bandrami 9y ago
        If they're not calling my own ATLAS then they aren't "optimized" in any real sense to begin with.
- mynewtb 9y ago
  Will you backport security fixes and other significant bugs yourself?
  - bandrami 9y ago
    I don't have do that for my 20 year old Perl code or 30 year old Scheme code. Is the bare-bones Python interpreter really that much more full of vulnerabilities?

bandrami 9y ago

Also, Python is the only ecosystem I know of where people actually get angry that you use an old and stable version of the software, as those downvotes indicate.

zbentley 9y ago
Python might be an especially loud case, but I've seen a fair amount of that in some other areas, for example: - People getting angry at browser JS authors for coding in explicit support, or huge back-compat shims, for obsolete browsers and/or deprecated JS features. - People getting angry at Perl authors for writing code that depends on a stable hash iteration order (changed in Perl 5.26 or something? I forget). There was an extremely vocal (tiny) minority of users raising a big stink about the change in that behavior and claiming that it would break the universe. - C developers being criticized for coding to older (and often more verbose or tricky to use, but omnipresent) pure-POSIX macros and behavior rather than $latest_GNU_or_GCC_feature, which also had the pernicious effect of making things less portable, and damaging the culture of portability. There are more examples, but you get the idea.