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agree. The 2 years core curriulum in the US college majors is an indictment of US high schools IMHO. I like the system here in Germany a lot better, its not per

agree. The 2 years core curriulum in the US college majors is an indictment of US high schools IMHO. I like the system here in Germany a lot better, its not perfect but it doesnt waste your time as much and gives you way more options.

emodendroket 9y ago
I think most Americans have a lot of resistance to the idea of a system that consigns you to a particular fate by age 10.
- pc86 9y ago
  Seriously. What happens if, as I did in the US, I'm convinced I want to be a doctor but at age 19 realize I really don't like chemistry, nor am I particularly good at it, and want to do something different?
  - chrisseaton 9y ago
    In Europe if you wan't to be a doctor and you were 19 you'd already be in first year of a specific medicine degree.
  - detaro 9y ago
    In the specific example, you'd probably noticed that you don't like chemistry in your high school chemistry classes already. And if you didn't, you'd switch to a different university/specialization after the first year or so, transferring credits for overlapping courses if there are any. That's not a very big deal, at least in Germany switching once even means you'll get the state education loans for longer if you need them.
eesmith 9y ago
The US doesn't track people early into career-focused educations but prefers a broader - or depending on your viewpoint, less focused - education. For example, someone studying computer science in college may be required to also take courses in fine arts, history, and English literature. This can feel like a waste of time for those who are definite that they want, say, a CS degree. I think the US should have more technical/career colleges, along with a higher respect for them. But it can also give more options to change fields as an adult.
- unethical_ban 9y ago
  Parent's point is that high school should serve as the broad base of understanding in civics, arts, history, lit, etc. and by the time you're in university, you should be focusing on your major.
  - eesmith 9y ago
    Yes, I believe I got that. My point is that I don't agree. I think the US system "gives you way more options" because students aren't specializing so early. Why should you focus on your major though all of college, to the (near) exclusion of other topics? While I look at the sample schedules at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany#Timetables https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany#Timetable... and wonder about all the time wasted in religious studies.
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      I wouldn't say "wasted," even if you are not religious. A lot of European and early American history was somewhat difficult for me to penetrate until, as an adult, I developed an interest in learning about Christianity (its history, doctrines of different denominations, etc.) and suddenly a lot of things made more sense to me. If the "religious studies" courses include other religions, so much the better, as I don't doubt that having more understanding of the world's religions would illuminate world history in a similar way for me.
      - eesmith 9y ago
        How much time do you think is needed? In the "Sample grade 10 Gymnasium timetable", there's as much time spend on "religious studies" as "biology" (2 periods per week). In the "Sample grade 12 Gymnasium timetable", it's also 2 periods per week, and equal to the time spent on "Politics-Economy". This seems well more than needed in order to understand the history. Is the high school-level religious education in Germany really taught as a comparative religion that includes the world's religions? The discussion at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_education#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_education#Germany says that most of the German states teach "religious (Christian) education in close cooperation with the churches", and the teachers are "paid by the state and are bound to the German constitution, as well as answerable to the churches for the content of their teaching." The discussion at https://www.german-way.com/history-and-culture/germany/religion-in-germany/ https://www.german-way.com/history-and-culture/germany/relig... : "A standard part of the public school curriculum in Germany is religious instruction (Religionsunterricht). For the most part, this is confined to Catholic or Protestant students, but some states also offer instruction for Jewish students. In Berlin three public schools also offer instruction for Buddhists. Although religious instruction is a required subject (according to the German Constitution!), students above a certain age (or by parental request) can opt out for personal reasons. "Only in recent years has there been any discussion of offering Islamic instruction for students belonging to Germany’s largest non-Christian religious minority, but no German state (Bundesland) currently offers instruction for Muslim students in German, in the same way that Christian instruction is offered. ... What about the various forms of the Muslim religion (Sunni, Shiite, Alevite, etc.) and ethnic divisions (Turk, Albanian, Pakistani, etc.)?" This makes it sound like the German courses teach the tenets of a specific faith, and are not a comparative/world religion training. Lastly, understanding religious is important to an understanding of history. Does the German religious history really cover some of the negative sides of religion like the (early) Christian justification for slavery (eg, the Romanus Pontifex, Dum Diversas, and Inter Caetera)?

emodendroket 9y ago

I think most Americans have a lot of resistance to the idea of a system that consigns you to a particular fate by age 10.

pc86 9y ago
Seriously. What happens if, as I did in the US, I'm convinced I want to be a doctor but at age 19 realize I really don't like chemistry, nor am I particularly good at it, and want to do something different?
- chrisseaton 9y ago
  In Europe if you wan't to be a doctor and you were 19 you'd already be in first year of a specific medicine degree.
- detaro 9y ago
  In the specific example, you'd probably noticed that you don't like chemistry in your high school chemistry classes already. And if you didn't, you'd switch to a different university/specialization after the first year or so, transferring credits for overlapping courses if there are any. That's not a very big deal, at least in Germany switching once even means you'll get the state education loans for longer if you need them.

eesmith 9y ago

The US doesn't track people early into career-focused educations but prefers a broader - or depending on your viewpoint, less focused - education. For example, someone studying computer science in college may be required to also take courses in fine arts, history, and English literature. This can feel like a waste of time for those who are definite that they want, say, a CS degree. I think the US should have more technical/career colleges, along with a higher respect for them. But it can also give more options to change fields as an adult.

unethical_ban 9y ago
Parent's point is that high school should serve as the broad base of understanding in civics, arts, history, lit, etc. and by the time you're in university, you should be focusing on your major.
- eesmith 9y ago
  Yes, I believe I got that. My point is that I don't agree. I think the US system "gives you way more options" because students aren't specializing so early. Why should you focus on your major though all of college, to the (near) exclusion of other topics? While I look at the sample schedules at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany#Timetables https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany#Timetable... and wonder about all the time wasted in religious studies.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    I wouldn't say "wasted," even if you are not religious. A lot of European and early American history was somewhat difficult for me to penetrate until, as an adult, I developed an interest in learning about Christianity (its history, doctrines of different denominations, etc.) and suddenly a lot of things made more sense to me. If the "religious studies" courses include other religions, so much the better, as I don't doubt that having more understanding of the world's religions would illuminate world history in a similar way for me.
    - eesmith 9y ago
      How much time do you think is needed? In the "Sample grade 10 Gymnasium timetable", there's as much time spend on "religious studies" as "biology" (2 periods per week). In the "Sample grade 12 Gymnasium timetable", it's also 2 periods per week, and equal to the time spent on "Politics-Economy". This seems well more than needed in order to understand the history. Is the high school-level religious education in Germany really taught as a comparative religion that includes the world's religions? The discussion at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_education#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_education#Germany says that most of the German states teach "religious (Christian) education in close cooperation with the churches", and the teachers are "paid by the state and are bound to the German constitution, as well as answerable to the churches for the content of their teaching." The discussion at https://www.german-way.com/history-and-culture/germany/religion-in-germany/ https://www.german-way.com/history-and-culture/germany/relig... : "A standard part of the public school curriculum in Germany is religious instruction (Religionsunterricht). For the most part, this is confined to Catholic or Protestant students, but some states also offer instruction for Jewish students. In Berlin three public schools also offer instruction for Buddhists. Although religious instruction is a required subject (according to the German Constitution!), students above a certain age (or by parental request) can opt out for personal reasons. "Only in recent years has there been any discussion of offering Islamic instruction for students belonging to Germany’s largest non-Christian religious minority, but no German state (Bundesland) currently offers instruction for Muslim students in German, in the same way that Christian instruction is offered. ... What about the various forms of the Muslim religion (Sunni, Shiite, Alevite, etc.) and ethnic divisions (Turk, Albanian, Pakistani, etc.)?" This makes it sound like the German courses teach the tenets of a specific faith, and are not a comparative/world religion training. Lastly, understanding religious is important to an understanding of history. Does the German religious history really cover some of the negative sides of religion like the (early) Christian justification for slavery (eg, the Romanus Pontifex, Dum Diversas, and Inter Caetera)?