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Considering some of the loudest voices on the strong to far left today are self avowed Marxists, especially in labor movements, I don't think it's even a stretc

Considering some of the loudest voices on the strong to far left today are self avowed Marxists, especially in labor movements, I don't think it's even a stretch or "throwing around terms". In fact, 'social justice' is a term directly attributed to the philosophies of Karl Marx. I'm not an extremest on the other end, but it is not disingenuous to state that much of the left's visions are directly "Marxist". What would you call the idea of a "base livable wage" or "equity over equality"?

justin66 9y ago
> Considering some of the loudest voices on the strong to far left today are self avowed Marxists, especially in labor movements, I don't think it's even a stretch or "throwing around terms". The most historically important labor union of our time, Solidarność, was the largest player in driving the Communists out of Poland and bringing back capitalism. It doesn't seem to me that you're throwing around terms, it's more like you're just sort of wandering around accidentally dropping them on the floor. Which is possibly rude to say, but the first person to use the word "postmodernism" in a conversation earns some demerits. (edit: that wasn't you. My bad!) Another poster pointed out that a labor union is a bunch of laborers standing in solidarity for something they want. Acting as if that is always the same... well, have fun with that.
- fortythirteen 9y ago
  > The most historically important labor union of our time, Solidarność, was the largest player in driving the Communists out of Poland You're confusing a labor union in a communist country versus those in a capitalist country. There is a long history of American labor unions being the main infiltration point of communist movements. The AFL CIO had to specifically write a bylaw in the 1950s to expel them. Here's a really interesting interview of Thaddeus Russel, someone who was raised by two communists in Berkeley, whose main goal was infiltrating labor movements: https://youtu.be/x4YxSGFqOH8?t=3m50s https://youtu.be/x4YxSGFqOH8?t=3m50s
  - justin66 9y ago
    > You're confusing a labor union in a communist country versus those in a capitalist country. It's not on me to intuit that your misuse of terms is limited to the United States. Your statement is funny, though, and would seem to imply that labor unions opposed to Marxism during Communist regimes would embrace Marxism once those governments adopted capitalism, for some reason. I wonder if there are any examples of that happening. > someone who was raised by two communists in Berkeley, whose main goal was infiltrating labor movements I think you've taken the notion that all Marxists like labor unions and taken it to imply that all labor unions like Marxism, which is obviously not true. You should be able to see the logical problem there, even if you're not interested in the historical specifics, which are interesting. If you're limiting yourself to the American left-right political spectrum, which tends to lobotomize a political discussion, you can probably sort of justify calling unionization a "leftist" tactic. That's not about ideas at all, it is simply because what we call our "right" has defined itself as being opposed to unionization. Marxism has nothing to do with that, and calling unionization "Marxist/socialist" is really a bridge too far.
    - fortythirteen 9y ago
      Stop being disingenuous. The article this comment thread is over is about someone specifically attempting to organize labor in the US.
      - justin66 9y ago
        Nothing I've written is disingenuous. Perhaps you need to be more careful in the comments you make when you're addressing an international group of people whose interest goes a little deeper than talk-radio talking points. And in case it wasn't obvious: "progressives" often find being labelled Marxists irritating. It's one of the dumber things that happens in our political dialog, and if you do it in mixed company you'll sometimes be called out on it.
      - fortythirteen 9y ago
        > Perhaps you need to be more careful in the comments you make when you're addressing an international group of people whose interest goes a little deeper than talk-radio talking points. Says the person who took an article about American labor organization and tried to make it about Europe. > And in case it wasn't obvious: "progressives" often find being labelled Marxists irritating. Except the term "progressives" was coined by Marxists and socialists in the 1930s to separate themselves from liberals.

justin66 9y ago

> Considering some of the loudest voices on the strong to far left today are self avowed Marxists, especially in labor movements, I don't think it's even a stretch or "throwing around terms". The most historically important labor union of our time, Solidarność, was the largest player in driving the Communists out of Poland and bringing back capitalism. It doesn't seem to me that you're throwing around terms, it's more like you're just sort of wandering around accidentally dropping them on the floor. Which is possibly rude to say, but the first person to use the word "postmodernism" in a conversation earns some demerits. (edit: that wasn't you. My bad!) Another poster pointed out that a labor union is a bunch of laborers standing in solidarity for something they want. Acting as if that is always the same... well, have fun with that.

fortythirteen 9y ago
> The most historically important labor union of our time, Solidarność, was the largest player in driving the Communists out of Poland You're confusing a labor union in a communist country versus those in a capitalist country. There is a long history of American labor unions being the main infiltration point of communist movements. The AFL CIO had to specifically write a bylaw in the 1950s to expel them. Here's a really interesting interview of Thaddeus Russel, someone who was raised by two communists in Berkeley, whose main goal was infiltrating labor movements: https://youtu.be/x4YxSGFqOH8?t=3m50s https://youtu.be/x4YxSGFqOH8?t=3m50s
- justin66 9y ago
  > You're confusing a labor union in a communist country versus those in a capitalist country. It's not on me to intuit that your misuse of terms is limited to the United States. Your statement is funny, though, and would seem to imply that labor unions opposed to Marxism during Communist regimes would embrace Marxism once those governments adopted capitalism, for some reason. I wonder if there are any examples of that happening. > someone who was raised by two communists in Berkeley, whose main goal was infiltrating labor movements I think you've taken the notion that all Marxists like labor unions and taken it to imply that all labor unions like Marxism, which is obviously not true. You should be able to see the logical problem there, even if you're not interested in the historical specifics, which are interesting. If you're limiting yourself to the American left-right political spectrum, which tends to lobotomize a political discussion, you can probably sort of justify calling unionization a "leftist" tactic. That's not about ideas at all, it is simply because what we call our "right" has defined itself as being opposed to unionization. Marxism has nothing to do with that, and calling unionization "Marxist/socialist" is really a bridge too far.
  - fortythirteen 9y ago
    Stop being disingenuous. The article this comment thread is over is about someone specifically attempting to organize labor in the US.
    - justin66 9y ago
      Nothing I've written is disingenuous. Perhaps you need to be more careful in the comments you make when you're addressing an international group of people whose interest goes a little deeper than talk-radio talking points. And in case it wasn't obvious: "progressives" often find being labelled Marxists irritating. It's one of the dumber things that happens in our political dialog, and if you do it in mixed company you'll sometimes be called out on it.
    - fortythirteen 9y ago
      > Perhaps you need to be more careful in the comments you make when you're addressing an international group of people whose interest goes a little deeper than talk-radio talking points. Says the person who took an article about American labor organization and tried to make it about Europe. > And in case it wasn't obvious: "progressives" often find being labelled Marxists irritating. Except the term "progressives" was coined by Marxists and socialists in the 1930s to separate themselves from liberals.