4 ms·

Progressives like to think they're the only ones who care about that when, in reality, everyone except the strictest libertarian wants all of those things. Wha

Progressives like to think they're the only ones who care about that when, in reality, everyone except the strictest libertarian wants all of those things. What frustrates me personally is the inability of many progressives to rationalize anything other than Marxist/socialist means for those ends and then act as if everyone who doesn't believe in those means doesn't share those end goals.

pjc50 9y ago
> rationalize anything other than Marxist/socialist means What does this actually mean?
- fortythirteen 9y ago
  Using tech industry working conditions as an example, progressives, on average, see the solution in unionizing (more bureaucracy, and the key breeding grounds for Bolshevik-like movements). They tend to dismiss the more incentive-based approach of ending the abuse of the H1-B system, which is the key market driver for artificially low wages and poorer working conditions. This is because doing so is at odds with the post-modernist ideal of a borderless society.
  - chimeracoder 9y ago
    > This is because doing so is at odds with the post-modernist ideal of a borderless society. nit: "a borderless society" is compatible with postmodernist framing, but it is not the necessary outcome of one. Postmodernism is a category of schools of though, not a single one, and so some schools of postmodernism advocate a borderless society, but others are opposed to it.
- Bartweiss 9y ago
  Throwing around 'Marxist' seems extreme here, but I think I recognize the sentiment. There are a lot of ways to improve the position of workers, and historically progressivism has been interested in some and opposed to others. Two examples: If you want to improve salaries, you can do that via unionization and lobbying for guaranteed raises. That's a popular leftist approach. You can also do that by advocating for bonuses based on personal achievement or corporate profit. The left has generally been disinterested in that, and has indirectly opposed it by advocating for higher taxes on bonuses. If you want to expand worker influence on how companies are run, you can found co-ops, establish worker's councils, and so on; these are popular leftist programs. You can also give meaningfully-large stock grants to large numbers of employees - equity-granting startups are worker-owned every bit as much as co-ops. This isn't a leftist initiative at all, and has been indirectly opposed by calls to heavily tax options and capital gains even when they're being given in lieu of salary. I don't especially want to debate any of those as policies; it's just a demonstration of what some leftist and non-leftist roads to labor power look like.
  - fortythirteen 9y ago
    Considering some of the loudest voices on the strong to far left today are self avowed Marxists, especially in labor movements, I don't think it's even a stretch or "throwing around terms". In fact, 'social justice' is a term directly attributed to the philosophies of Karl Marx. I'm not an extremest on the other end, but it is not disingenuous to state that much of the left's visions are directly "Marxist". What would you call the idea of a "base livable wage" or "equity over equality"?
    - justin66 9y ago
      > Considering some of the loudest voices on the strong to far left today are self avowed Marxists, especially in labor movements, I don't think it's even a stretch or "throwing around terms". The most historically important labor union of our time, Solidarność, was the largest player in driving the Communists out of Poland and bringing back capitalism. It doesn't seem to me that you're throwing around terms, it's more like you're just sort of wandering around accidentally dropping them on the floor. Which is possibly rude to say, but the first person to use the word "postmodernism" in a conversation earns some demerits. (edit: that wasn't you. My bad!) Another poster pointed out that a labor union is a bunch of laborers standing in solidarity for something they want. Acting as if that is always the same... well, have fun with that.
      - fortythirteen 9y ago
        > The most historically important labor union of our time, Solidarność, was the largest player in driving the Communists out of Poland You're confusing a labor union in a communist country versus those in a capitalist country. There is a long history of American labor unions being the main infiltration point of communist movements. The AFL CIO had to specifically write a bylaw in the 1950s to expel them. Here's a really interesting interview of Thaddeus Russel, someone who was raised by two communists in Berkeley, whose main goal was infiltrating labor movements: https://youtu.be/x4YxSGFqOH8?t=3m50s https://youtu.be/x4YxSGFqOH8?t=3m50s
        9y ago
- justin66 9y ago
  It means some people use the words "Marxist" and "socialist" without any care as to what they actually mean.
  - fortythirteen 9y ago
    See my other comments for how your allegation is baseless. From my perspective, so many "progressives" don't know the history of their own adopted philosophies (or previously attempted applications of them) to be able to properly categorize their origins in Marxism.
burntsushi 9y ago
Even the "strictest libertarian" might want those things. As you say, the difference can be in the means, not the ends.
uoaei 9y ago
"Progressives" (whatever you think that label means) aren't the only people who support those causes. It seems like you're getting caught up on some private subtext assigned to the word "progressive." Just curious, do you consider progressives the identity politics fanatics and staunch neoliberals? I'd spend some time arguing they're not progressively oriented at all.

pjc50 9y ago

> rationalize anything other than Marxist/socialist means What does this actually mean?

fortythirteen 9y ago
Using tech industry working conditions as an example, progressives, on average, see the solution in unionizing (more bureaucracy, and the key breeding grounds for Bolshevik-like movements). They tend to dismiss the more incentive-based approach of ending the abuse of the H1-B system, which is the key market driver for artificially low wages and poorer working conditions. This is because doing so is at odds with the post-modernist ideal of a borderless society.
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > This is because doing so is at odds with the post-modernist ideal of a borderless society. nit: "a borderless society" is compatible with postmodernist framing, but it is not the necessary outcome of one. Postmodernism is a category of schools of though, not a single one, and so some schools of postmodernism advocate a borderless society, but others are opposed to it.
Bartweiss 9y ago
Throwing around 'Marxist' seems extreme here, but I think I recognize the sentiment. There are a lot of ways to improve the position of workers, and historically progressivism has been interested in some and opposed to others. Two examples: If you want to improve salaries, you can do that via unionization and lobbying for guaranteed raises. That's a popular leftist approach. You can also do that by advocating for bonuses based on personal achievement or corporate profit. The left has generally been disinterested in that, and has indirectly opposed it by advocating for higher taxes on bonuses. If you want to expand worker influence on how companies are run, you can found co-ops, establish worker's councils, and so on; these are popular leftist programs. You can also give meaningfully-large stock grants to large numbers of employees - equity-granting startups are worker-owned every bit as much as co-ops. This isn't a leftist initiative at all, and has been indirectly opposed by calls to heavily tax options and capital gains even when they're being given in lieu of salary. I don't especially want to debate any of those as policies; it's just a demonstration of what some leftist and non-leftist roads to labor power look like.
- fortythirteen 9y ago
  Considering some of the loudest voices on the strong to far left today are self avowed Marxists, especially in labor movements, I don't think it's even a stretch or "throwing around terms". In fact, 'social justice' is a term directly attributed to the philosophies of Karl Marx. I'm not an extremest on the other end, but it is not disingenuous to state that much of the left's visions are directly "Marxist". What would you call the idea of a "base livable wage" or "equity over equality"?
  - justin66 9y ago
    > Considering some of the loudest voices on the strong to far left today are self avowed Marxists, especially in labor movements, I don't think it's even a stretch or "throwing around terms". The most historically important labor union of our time, Solidarność, was the largest player in driving the Communists out of Poland and bringing back capitalism. It doesn't seem to me that you're throwing around terms, it's more like you're just sort of wandering around accidentally dropping them on the floor. Which is possibly rude to say, but the first person to use the word "postmodernism" in a conversation earns some demerits. (edit: that wasn't you. My bad!) Another poster pointed out that a labor union is a bunch of laborers standing in solidarity for something they want. Acting as if that is always the same... well, have fun with that.
    - fortythirteen 9y ago
      > The most historically important labor union of our time, Solidarność, was the largest player in driving the Communists out of Poland You're confusing a labor union in a communist country versus those in a capitalist country. There is a long history of American labor unions being the main infiltration point of communist movements. The AFL CIO had to specifically write a bylaw in the 1950s to expel them. Here's a really interesting interview of Thaddeus Russel, someone who was raised by two communists in Berkeley, whose main goal was infiltrating labor movements: https://youtu.be/x4YxSGFqOH8?t=3m50s https://youtu.be/x4YxSGFqOH8?t=3m50s
      - 9y ago
justin66 9y ago
It means some people use the words "Marxist" and "socialist" without any care as to what they actually mean.
- fortythirteen 9y ago
  See my other comments for how your allegation is baseless. From my perspective, so many "progressives" don't know the history of their own adopted philosophies (or previously attempted applications of them) to be able to properly categorize their origins in Marxism.

burntsushi 9y ago

Even the "strictest libertarian" might want those things. As you say, the difference can be in the means, not the ends.

uoaei 9y ago

"Progressives" (whatever you think that label means) aren't the only people who support those causes. It seems like you're getting caught up on some private subtext assigned to the word "progressive." Just curious, do you consider progressives the identity politics fanatics and staunch neoliberals? I'd spend some time arguing they're not progressively oriented at all.