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> it's abundantly clear that deviating even slightly from the orthodoxy within tech can be disastrous to one's ability to pay for their home and food This does

> it's abundantly clear that deviating even slightly from the orthodoxy within tech can be disastrous to one's ability to pay for their home and food This does not square with reality as I've experienced it. Hell, I've worked with someone who thought von Mises had a point--and he'd argue with you about it. Loudly, in public, and in written formats. There are receipts. And yet somehow, despite the mustachio-twirling machinations of the "orthodoxy", he's still thriving in the industry. Promoted regularly, big fat stock-option grants, the works. Despite not being anything special technically, just another guy. Somehow, disagreeing but not being an odious prick about it seems to go okay, and he's certainly not the only well-paid-and-respected person I know in the industry with loony views. (He's the only one I know who I like, but that's another thing.) But I left a catch in there. There's that "being an odious prick about it" part, isn't there? There's the "writing manifestos impugning your coworkers based on their gender" part, there's the "throwing money at political factions bent on making the lives of your coworkers worse" part. Yeah, that's going to get people mad. That might make people not want to work with you. But why should they? When you're an active threat to their well-being, of course they want to see the back of you. And it sure sounds like you're mixing that up with "deviating even slightly from the orthodoxy".

jakebasile 9y ago
> And it sure sounds like you're mixing that up with "deviating even slightly from the orthodoxy". You're just proving my point with your insinuation that when I explain why some people might not be comfortable sharing their political views in their workplace that I am somehow condoning whatever negative political ideology you disagree with. I have said absolutely nothing of my own politics.
- eropple 9y ago
  Qui tacet consentire videtur. You're up on your Latin, I assume. And your history, the history that gives you grounds to make these sweeping (and they are sweeping) statements you're making about the nature of work and society and how very apolitical one should be there. This stuff was, after all, figured out thousands of years ago. Shame we keep thinking it's all so novel, but, yanno. Anyway, for those less up on these things: it's been settled in political spheres for millenia that silence, when you can speak and choose not to, is assent--is support of the status quo. And the status quo is profoundly fucked for a whole lot of people, notably a whole lot of people I care about. Ennobling that silence, and that support, because of fear of mustachio-twirling nonexistent entities? Sorry, my dude, but I know where your car is parked.
  - jakebasile 9y ago
    > Sorry, my dude, but I know where your car is parked. You don't know anything about me. I think I'm actually a pretty alright guy, and I treat everyone with as much respect as they treat me. It's wonderful that on a post about why some people are afraid to bring politics to work, I'm being witchhunted now because I answered, in a completely non-partisan way, why that might be. I regret even making my post. Discourse is impossible anymore.
    - eropple 9y ago
      You are not being witch-hunted, my dramatic dude, you are being argued with. There are no torches. There are no pitchforks. But let's be crystal clear: you are not aiming to have "discourse". If it were discourse, you'd, like, actually try to respond to the thrust of what I was saying, instead of rending your shirt and getting all "oh, a witch-hunt, I hope I'm not made of wood!" at a little bit of conversation. And I in turn would respond to your points, and maybe somebody here might learn something. (Maybe even me!) But nah. You gotta get down from that cross you climbed on, though. Nobody brought nails for you. To address your self-characterization, even the notion of treating "everyone with as much respect as they treat [you]" is a cop-out. What about how they treat the people around you? See Damore, to whom you could, by your own characterisation (assuming you're male; apologies if not, but "Jake" is pretty indicative), be totally okay with--because it's just all the women at the company he's shitting on. But not you. It should be obvious, I trust, that's not how decency works. And that scales to a maxim: "attacks on those weaker than us are attacks on us." (That's Maciej's entire thing, by the way.) And it's why you cannot ever be apolitical "because it's work" without fundamentally endorsing bad, bad stuff. You didn't ask for that responsibility, but neither did I. And yet, we own it, and it is up to us to be as good and decent with the burden as we can be.
    - Frondo 9y ago
      What's happening here isn't "witch hunting," it's discussion on a forum. You may be uncomfortable being questioned or critiqued, but lamentably that is par for the course when posting to a discussion forum. There may also be fora where what you say isn't called into question; this, I don't think, is one of them. Discourse is certainly possible.
SamReidHughes 9y ago
> "throwing money at political factions bent on making the lives of your coworkers worse" That would describe every political donation.
- lazyasciiart 9y ago
  I don't think that's a universally accepted position.
xupybd 9y ago
Are you saying James was being an an odious prick? Have you read what he wrote? Or heard that he was encouraged to give feed back?
- jubalfh 9y ago
  Isn't he an odious prick? Have you not read what he wrote, before his firing and afterwards? Do you understand that “feedback” does not mean “rubbish”?
peoplewindow 9y ago
His whole manifesto was riven with statements that he was explicitly not claiming his female coworkers shouldn't be there. The fact that people keep repeating this lie is disturbing. The document is public. https://medium.com/@Cernovich/full-james-damore-memo-uncensored-memo-with-charts-and-cites-339f3d2d05f https://medium.com/@Cernovich/full-james-damore-memo-uncenso...

jakebasile 9y ago

> And it sure sounds like you're mixing that up with "deviating even slightly from the orthodoxy". You're just proving my point with your insinuation that when I explain why some people might not be comfortable sharing their political views in their workplace that I am somehow condoning whatever negative political ideology you disagree with. I have said absolutely nothing of my own politics.

eropple 9y ago
Qui tacet consentire videtur. You're up on your Latin, I assume. And your history, the history that gives you grounds to make these sweeping (and they are sweeping) statements you're making about the nature of work and society and how very apolitical one should be there. This stuff was, after all, figured out thousands of years ago. Shame we keep thinking it's all so novel, but, yanno. Anyway, for those less up on these things: it's been settled in political spheres for millenia that silence, when you can speak and choose not to, is assent--is support of the status quo. And the status quo is profoundly fucked for a whole lot of people, notably a whole lot of people I care about. Ennobling that silence, and that support, because of fear of mustachio-twirling nonexistent entities? Sorry, my dude, but I know where your car is parked.
- jakebasile 9y ago
  > Sorry, my dude, but I know where your car is parked. You don't know anything about me. I think I'm actually a pretty alright guy, and I treat everyone with as much respect as they treat me. It's wonderful that on a post about why some people are afraid to bring politics to work, I'm being witchhunted now because I answered, in a completely non-partisan way, why that might be. I regret even making my post. Discourse is impossible anymore.
  - eropple 9y ago
    You are not being witch-hunted, my dramatic dude, you are being argued with. There are no torches. There are no pitchforks. But let's be crystal clear: you are not aiming to have "discourse". If it were discourse, you'd, like, actually try to respond to the thrust of what I was saying, instead of rending your shirt and getting all "oh, a witch-hunt, I hope I'm not made of wood!" at a little bit of conversation. And I in turn would respond to your points, and maybe somebody here might learn something. (Maybe even me!) But nah. You gotta get down from that cross you climbed on, though. Nobody brought nails for you. To address your self-characterization, even the notion of treating "everyone with as much respect as they treat [you]" is a cop-out. What about how they treat the people around you? See Damore, to whom you could, by your own characterisation (assuming you're male; apologies if not, but "Jake" is pretty indicative), be totally okay with--because it's just all the women at the company he's shitting on. But not you. It should be obvious, I trust, that's not how decency works. And that scales to a maxim: "attacks on those weaker than us are attacks on us." (That's Maciej's entire thing, by the way.) And it's why you cannot ever be apolitical "because it's work" without fundamentally endorsing bad, bad stuff. You didn't ask for that responsibility, but neither did I. And yet, we own it, and it is up to us to be as good and decent with the burden as we can be.
  - Frondo 9y ago
    What's happening here isn't "witch hunting," it's discussion on a forum. You may be uncomfortable being questioned or critiqued, but lamentably that is par for the course when posting to a discussion forum. There may also be fora where what you say isn't called into question; this, I don't think, is one of them. Discourse is certainly possible.

SamReidHughes 9y ago

> "throwing money at political factions bent on making the lives of your coworkers worse" That would describe every political donation.

lazyasciiart 9y ago
I don't think that's a universally accepted position.

xupybd 9y ago

Are you saying James was being an an odious prick? Have you read what he wrote? Or heard that he was encouraged to give feed back?

jubalfh 9y ago
Isn't he an odious prick? Have you not read what he wrote, before his firing and afterwards? Do you understand that “feedback” does not mean “rubbish”?

peoplewindow 9y ago

His whole manifesto was riven with statements that he was explicitly not claiming his female coworkers shouldn't be there. The fact that people keep repeating this lie is disturbing. The document is public. https://medium.com/@Cernovich/full-james-damore-memo-uncensored-memo-with-charts-and-cites-339f3d2d05f https://medium.com/@Cernovich/full-james-damore-memo-uncenso...