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> In a December 2015 Monday Note titled Let’s Outlaw Math, I mocked our government officials and Law and Order public servants for their obdurate disregard for

> In a December 2015 Monday Note titled Let’s Outlaw Math, I mocked our government officials and Law and Order public servants for their obdurate disregard for a fundamental mathematical property that makes well-designed encryption unbreakable This is a wrong way to think about it. You can say similar things about building a bomb. The steps to manufacture explosives from common materials are simple if you are good at chemistry. Likewise, this mathematical explanation makes encryption sound like a high-school can do it using an abacus. But it's not. It's simple for a person to understand. But coding these algorithms is no joke. Now if you want the government to not impose restrictions on crypto software, that is the equivalent of wanting to lift controls off explosive substances. Yes these are fundamental truths about the world (mix a and b and get an explosion, multiply prime numbers and you can't factorize), but that does not mean the government cannot try to control them. Just like they control the sale of explosives, for public security, they can also require Microsoft, Apple and Google to put in a master-key. And I don't see a problem with that.

tuxxy 9y ago
Have a high schooler generate a one time pad. Unbreakable security in a simple system based on relatively simple mathematical concepts.
mediocrejoker 9y ago
> Just like they control the sale of explosives, for public security, they can also require Microsoft, Apple and Google to put in a master-key. And I don't see a problem with that. The problem is that there's no good way to control that master key. What do you do with it? Lock it on an encrypted USB drive in a fire proof safe bolted to the floor under the google headquarters? That works until a police agency wants to use it. And then another. How many people do you think you can reasonably give this key to before someone who isn't "supposed" to have it gets their hands on it? What happens when a criminal gets his hands on the master key that unlocks every encryption made by apple, google and microsoft?
- Asooka 9y ago
  Regulate encryption like you regulate heavy weapons. You can carry a gun, but you can't carry an assault rifle. But you can get special permission for special cases. Yes, the master key for your SMSes will be leaked pretty quickly, but every business with a legitimate use for encryption will be able to use it. In the end your bank account will not get hacked, terrorists will continue using strong encryption, but law enforcement will be pacified.
  - indymike 9y ago
    Regulating math is not something that usually has a good outcome. See the 1897 Indiana Pi Law for a good lesson in unintended consequences. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_Bill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_Bill
  - andrewaylett 9y ago
    Didn't the US try that one already?
    - berbec 9y ago
      I believe so: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip
      - andrewaylett 9y ago
        I was thinking more of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy#Criminal_investigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy#Criminal_i..., actually, but that's a good example too.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    You can't take a gun, put it into a machine, push a button, and have the machine make you a million guns. If you could, gun control would go from difficult and incomplete to downright impossible. That's how encryption is now.
15155 9y ago
> But coding these algorithms is no joke. They've already been written. RSA isn't going to magically disappear. Open source implementations of quality crypto aren't going to up and vanish, just as how instructions to make bombs won't vanish. Ostensibly, the crypto implementations available today will be good well into the future, barring quantum computing advances.
- criddell 9y ago
  Implementations suffer not just from actual bugs, but from implementation choices that leak information (power consumption, timing data, etc...) Crypto implementation available today are only good until they are not anymore and it's impossible to say when that might happen. For example, a new compiler optimization might expose something that wasn't previously exposed.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    Side channel attacks are generally irrelevant for the scenario where a terrorist is using their own electronics to communicate with their fellows.
    - 15155 9y ago
      Which is the oft-cited reason we need government key escrow...
  - 15155 9y ago
    These situations do exist, but that doesn't change the point that the genie is out of the bottle. People who want this software are going to be able to have it. End of story. If a timing attack happens to pop up in it, great, that's a win for the government. But by and large, these messages will go without decryption. As with anything: these measures will not stop the determined lawbreaker - not that they necessarily need to.
mikeash 9y ago
There's a huge difference between bomb making and crypto. To make a bomb, you need to gather materials and then carry out some difficult, dangerous steps to turn them into explosives and assemble a bomb. Then if you want another bomb, you have to do it again. If you want a bigger bomb, you need more materials. Consider that any random person can easily buy some ammonium nitrate, but if you try to buy enough to blow up a building without a legitimate reason, you'll run into major obstacles with the law. Crypto is different. Once you set up crypto, you have it forever. Crypto that can encrypt 1kB can also encrypt 1TB. Crypto that works for one person can easily be made to work for a million people. Computers handle all the hard parts, and there's no obstacle to scale. It's true that the government could require big companies to put in a master key. The problem is that criminals would trivially bypass such a requirement. There's no computer equivalent to requiring all ammonium nitrate sellers to report sales. And in the other direction, there's no physical equivalent to the havoc that would occur if the master key ever leaked. The risks and benefits are completely topsy turvy for a master key scheme. Note that the government doesn't really try to restrict bomb making instructions, just bomb making materials. With crypto, the instructions are the only thing there is. There's no such thing as crypto materials, unless you propose to regulate CPUs in general.
- cmsj 9y ago
  You also don't have to build crypto from first principles, we have plenty of reusable software components at all layers of computing, that implement strong crypto.
  - mmjaa 9y ago
    This whole thing is a straw man. It is we the people who should be dismantling the security state, in order to solve the terror/war problem - we sure as hell don't need career experts dictating this. The public truly needs to fight back on this. Crypto is Math. Broken crypto is broken Math. But Math is broken anyway, because we can't really stop people using Math to hurt us. After Crypto being banned, what next? The Golden Rule? We can't have Math, because "Terrorism". The only solution is an open and honest society, in which sufficient resources are applied, at the human being level, to ensure that terrorism doesn't happen. Like, we could deploy battleships with bombs all we want, but those same battleships would go a long way towards actually making peace in the world, by healing it instead. But, we "can't do that", apparently, because "Threats/Force/Terror are more important". Let we, the people, continue to use crypto to undo the need for such power structures as the NSA, and all the rest of the spooks ..
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
mauli 9y ago
unfortunately even goverments are not able to secure the private key part sufficient enough. Adding the risk of outdated devices with compromised keys would be catastrophic and force everyone to buy newer overpriced hardware, without in the end adding anything to our privacy anymore.
notduncansmith 9y ago
Yeah let's just walk around with our pants down because belts can be used to strangle people.
Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
Until you can kill someone with encryption this is absolute bullshit FUD. Are you a paid shill?
- sctb 9y ago
  > Don't accuse others of astroturfing or shillage. Email us and we'll look into it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
cortesoft 9y ago
You can't download explosives. You can't type text into any computer and have it generate explosives. Encryption is not a physical object, which makes it completely unlike explosives. Not only that, there isn't even a specific piece of software that is encryption, it is simply a series of math functions you run on data. You can make all the rules in the world about companies having to have a master key. People have already downloaded PGP, it is too late to put that back in the bag.
nathan_long 9y ago
> they can also require Microsoft, Apple and Google to put in a master-key. And I don't see a problem with that. I do. How much do you suppose such keys would be worth? Trillions of dollars? Every nation-state and criminal organization on the planet would be after those keys. They'd use every technical and social trick in the book, including assassination, to get them. The loss would be inevitable, swift, and disastrous.

tuxxy 9y ago

Have a high schooler generate a one time pad. Unbreakable security in a simple system based on relatively simple mathematical concepts.

mediocrejoker 9y ago

> Just like they control the sale of explosives, for public security, they can also require Microsoft, Apple and Google to put in a master-key. And I don't see a problem with that. The problem is that there's no good way to control that master key. What do you do with it? Lock it on an encrypted USB drive in a fire proof safe bolted to the floor under the google headquarters? That works until a police agency wants to use it. And then another. How many people do you think you can reasonably give this key to before someone who isn't "supposed" to have it gets their hands on it? What happens when a criminal gets his hands on the master key that unlocks every encryption made by apple, google and microsoft?

Asooka 9y ago
Regulate encryption like you regulate heavy weapons. You can carry a gun, but you can't carry an assault rifle. But you can get special permission for special cases. Yes, the master key for your SMSes will be leaked pretty quickly, but every business with a legitimate use for encryption will be able to use it. In the end your bank account will not get hacked, terrorists will continue using strong encryption, but law enforcement will be pacified.
- indymike 9y ago
  Regulating math is not something that usually has a good outcome. See the 1897 Indiana Pi Law for a good lesson in unintended consequences. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_Bill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_Bill
- andrewaylett 9y ago
  Didn't the US try that one already?
  - berbec 9y ago
    I believe so: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip
    - andrewaylett 9y ago
      I was thinking more of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy#Criminal_investigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy#Criminal_i..., actually, but that's a good example too.
- mikeash 9y ago
  You can't take a gun, put it into a machine, push a button, and have the machine make you a million guns. If you could, gun control would go from difficult and incomplete to downright impossible. That's how encryption is now.

15155 9y ago

> But coding these algorithms is no joke. They've already been written. RSA isn't going to magically disappear. Open source implementations of quality crypto aren't going to up and vanish, just as how instructions to make bombs won't vanish. Ostensibly, the crypto implementations available today will be good well into the future, barring quantum computing advances.

criddell 9y ago
Implementations suffer not just from actual bugs, but from implementation choices that leak information (power consumption, timing data, etc...) Crypto implementation available today are only good until they are not anymore and it's impossible to say when that might happen. For example, a new compiler optimization might expose something that wasn't previously exposed.
- mikeash 9y ago
  Side channel attacks are generally irrelevant for the scenario where a terrorist is using their own electronics to communicate with their fellows.
  - 15155 9y ago
    Which is the oft-cited reason we need government key escrow...
- 15155 9y ago
  These situations do exist, but that doesn't change the point that the genie is out of the bottle. People who want this software are going to be able to have it. End of story. If a timing attack happens to pop up in it, great, that's a win for the government. But by and large, these messages will go without decryption. As with anything: these measures will not stop the determined lawbreaker - not that they necessarily need to.

mikeash 9y ago

There's a huge difference between bomb making and crypto. To make a bomb, you need to gather materials and then carry out some difficult, dangerous steps to turn them into explosives and assemble a bomb. Then if you want another bomb, you have to do it again. If you want a bigger bomb, you need more materials. Consider that any random person can easily buy some ammonium nitrate, but if you try to buy enough to blow up a building without a legitimate reason, you'll run into major obstacles with the law. Crypto is different. Once you set up crypto, you have it forever. Crypto that can encrypt 1kB can also encrypt 1TB. Crypto that works for one person can easily be made to work for a million people. Computers handle all the hard parts, and there's no obstacle to scale. It's true that the government could require big companies to put in a master key. The problem is that criminals would trivially bypass such a requirement. There's no computer equivalent to requiring all ammonium nitrate sellers to report sales. And in the other direction, there's no physical equivalent to the havoc that would occur if the master key ever leaked. The risks and benefits are completely topsy turvy for a master key scheme. Note that the government doesn't really try to restrict bomb making instructions, just bomb making materials. With crypto, the instructions are the only thing there is. There's no such thing as crypto materials, unless you propose to regulate CPUs in general.

cmsj 9y ago
You also don't have to build crypto from first principles, we have plenty of reusable software components at all layers of computing, that implement strong crypto.
- mmjaa 9y ago
  This whole thing is a straw man. It is we the people who should be dismantling the security state, in order to solve the terror/war problem - we sure as hell don't need career experts dictating this. The public truly needs to fight back on this. Crypto is Math. Broken crypto is broken Math. But Math is broken anyway, because we can't really stop people using Math to hurt us. After Crypto being banned, what next? The Golden Rule? We can't have Math, because "Terrorism". The only solution is an open and honest society, in which sufficient resources are applied, at the human being level, to ensure that terrorism doesn't happen. Like, we could deploy battleships with bombs all we want, but those same battleships would go a long way towards actually making peace in the world, by healing it instead. But, we "can't do that", apparently, because "Threats/Force/Terror are more important". Let we, the people, continue to use crypto to undo the need for such power structures as the NSA, and all the rest of the spooks ..

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

mauli 9y ago

unfortunately even goverments are not able to secure the private key part sufficient enough. Adding the risk of outdated devices with compromised keys would be catastrophic and force everyone to buy newer overpriced hardware, without in the end adding anything to our privacy anymore.

notduncansmith 9y ago

Yeah let's just walk around with our pants down because belts can be used to strangle people.

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago

Until you can kill someone with encryption this is absolute bullshit FUD. Are you a paid shill?

sctb 9y ago
> Don't accuse others of astroturfing or shillage. Email us and we'll look into it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

cortesoft 9y ago

You can't download explosives. You can't type text into any computer and have it generate explosives. Encryption is not a physical object, which makes it completely unlike explosives. Not only that, there isn't even a specific piece of software that is encryption, it is simply a series of math functions you run on data. You can make all the rules in the world about companies having to have a master key. People have already downloaded PGP, it is too late to put that back in the bag.

nathan_long 9y ago

> they can also require Microsoft, Apple and Google to put in a master-key. And I don't see a problem with that. I do. How much do you suppose such keys would be worth? Trillions of dollars? Every nation-state and criminal organization on the planet would be after those keys. They'd use every technical and social trick in the book, including assassination, to get them. The loss would be inevitable, swift, and disastrous.