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What I think is crazy is that this industry exists at the scale it does. It has replaced reality TV for a segment of the world population. There are legions of

What I think is crazy is that this industry exists at the scale it does. It has replaced reality TV for a segment of the world population. There are legions of people that watch these streams, just to watch someone doing something that they could do themselves (but maybe not win as much). This isn't like F1 racing where I'll never be able to afford a racecar, or football where I don't want to exercise. Most of the kids watching these streams own a decent computer and can play. I suppose it's just not for me. I watch video game reviews to see if something is worth buying, but not more than a few minutes of gameplay. Plus the other things that streaming groups/houses do aren't appealing to me. Have I gotten old? Is this why grey haired CEOs often miss great business opportunities? They just don't "get it?"

flipp3r 9y ago
> Most of the kids watching these streams own a decent computer and can play. Youre making it sound not only as if only kids watch this, but also like playing any sport at all is so much different - and then compare it to Reality TV instead of live sports. Actual WTF? Some of the streamers (variety streamers) do play for just entertainment value, but most stick to just one game. A lot of it is also being able to live chat with other people watching and interact with the person streaming. > This isn't like F1 racing where I'll never be able to afford a racecar, or football where I don't want to exercise. Why isn't it like that? That's exactly what it is. Do you have any idea how long professional esports players competing in tournaments have to work, to stay at the top level? And do you think they can play at the same level on the average person's hardware? Have a look at Starcraft 2, Counter Strike Source, or Osu!. These are games where top players make 100+ strategic actions per minute, need to have lightning reaction speeds and accuracy, and make bursts of 10 actions per second for full minutes, respectively. How can it be such a shock to non-gamers that people watch other people play a game, rather than play it themselves? Just imagine it - people watching a game! /s It's exactly the same as every professional sport that has ever existed.
- waterside81 9y ago
  This is where I disagree, and I know I'm in the minority (clearly) by how popular streaming has become. Professional athletes are marvels because they look so much bigger, better and are faster than the average joe. That's their appeal - they're real-life super heroes. LeBron, Jordan, Ronaldo, Ali, Jim Brown - they guys are living, breathing physical specimens who can do what no normal person, no matter how much training, can accomplish. Video gamers, while no doubt skilled and dedicated to their craft, look like regular guys off the street. There's no wonderment. It's why nobody has the world chess champion as a poster on their door (or desktop background, whatever today's equivalent). Poker is popular on TV too, but ask a kid who they want to be when they grow up, Messi or Phil Ivy and I'm pretty sure I know the answer. This stuff is popular and more power to those who succeed, but I think it's unfair to just brush off people's bewilderment at the success of esports by trying to compare some 19 year old "esports athlete" to a proper athlete.
  - ghthor 9y ago
    Faker from LOL Korea is more LeBron James to me than LeBron James, he is phenomenally talented. There are many others like him and many more like me that feel more connected an in awe of esports professionals than their traditional athletic analogues.
- ansible 9y ago
  Youre making it sound not only as if only kids watch this, but also like playing any sport at all is so much different - and then compare it to Reality TV instead of live sports. Now I've got my next business idea. Attach wireless streaming cameras to all the players in a sportsball game. Each player has a HUD, and can see chat messages in real time. Heck, for something like American Football, you could even have them vote on what play the opposing team is likely to do next. The player can take that under advisement, and maybe compliment a viewer when correct. To make more money, they viewers could bid on the predictions, which might help increase their accuracy. The player and the sport get a percentage of the bids, and the rest forms a prize pool for the most accurate bidders.
  - jpgleeson 9y ago
    This is probably as close as you're going to get at this moment in time to what you're saying. This was posted here a few months ago, haven't checked back in to see how it's going for them a season later. http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2017/02/the_salt_lake_screaming_eagles_a_football_team_controlled_by_fans_with_smartphones.html http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2017/02/the_...
  - Danihan 9y ago
    Actually a great idea, and this sort of "augmented viewing" will almost certainly happen sooner rather than later.
- aluhut 9y ago
  There is a difference between watching a E-Sports tournament and some let's play stream. As I understand it, OP talked about the former. As a gamer myself, I can say I feel exactly like him. I find most of it boring. I only scroll through those videos on youtube to see how the actual game looks like since Demos have been dead for a long time now (or you have to pay for them now). Additionally the annoying stuff happening around the video on twitch is repulsive. Especially the chat reminds me of those webchats on crappy 90s-style pages. On the other hand I do watch a tournament or some league play since german free tv started airing it.
- joejev 9y ago
  I love osu!, but there are no strategic actions, you just click the circles.
  - flipp3r 9y ago
    Yeah that part was about Starcraft 2, for Osu! its the 10 actions per second bit. I've played long enough to know I shouldn't be playing it anymore.
noobhacker 9y ago
It's not so different from your own example of "football where [you] don't want to exercise." Many video games require skills and can be stressful to play [1] [2]. It's a lot more fun to watch people more skilled than you accomplishing admirable feats. This way, you get to experience the fun without the stress, the same way people watch pro-footballers without playing football. Also, people doing this aren't all kids. Dota and Starcraft are > 10-year-old games, and many people watching them are in their 30s. [1] Dota 2 https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/2nfzrx/how_to_overcome_ladder_anxiety_in_solo_ranked/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/2nfzrx/how_to_overco... [2] Starcraft 2 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Dealing_with_anxiety http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Dealing_with_anxiety
stryan 9y ago
From the article: >“That’s like saying to a chef, ‘Why are you watching the Food Network? Shouldn’t you be in the kitchen, cooking?’ > Or to an athlete, ‘Why are you watching ESPN? Shouldn’t you be out shooting hoops?’ > No. People enjoy watching others who are good at what they do.” I don't understand it much myself (and I watch streams semi-regularly) but it's not like this doesn't have precedent. People watch professional basketball when they could just go outside and start a pickup game. Sometimes you just want to experience the game/sport/etc without having to actually play it. Plus with Twitch streams you can watch how skilled players play and what strategies they use. Personally, I watch a lot of streams for that reason. Plus, often times high-level play is almost a different game from casual level;watching streams (or recordings of streams) is one of the few ways casual players can see that.
- CocaKoala 9y ago
  > Plus with Twitch streams you can watch how skilled players play and what strategies they use. Personally, I watch a lot of streams for that reason. Plus, often times high-level play is almost a different game from casual level;watching streams (or recordings of streams) is one of the few ways casual players can see that. That's a big part of it as well. Imagine if you could hang out on the side of the court and ask Stephen Curry questions while he practices. Ask him about the game last night, ask him why he took the shot that he did, why he drove instead of passing, what his practice regime is. You can play basketball with your friends if you want, or you can pick the brain of somebody who's incredible at it and get their advice, get their thoughts on the game.
SomeStupidPoint 9y ago
You're projecting your biases on what it takes to be a "professional athlete" versus a "professional gamer" -- both require serious amounts of on-going training to stay in top condition. You can afford a football, but recognize that (for some) it's more fun to watch highly skilled professionals play; yet, you seem unable to understand how others might feel the same way about gaming. I'm going to say that's probably "getting old" -- the inability to see how something is like something you already know, because it's new and strange to you.
nerdponx 9y ago
Most of the kids watching these streams own a decent computer and can play. The thing about a lot of these streamers is that they are both entertaining and talented gamers. In the Dota 2 community, watching the top players stream is actually a good way to keep up-to-date on the latest strategies and techniques, which is important is a game that's as complex as Dota. A lot of the community also converges in streams, which can be a good way to stay in touch with the latest gossip, memes, etc. Many sports fans do actually participate in their sport. Instead of football, consider basketball, which just about anyone with access to a gymnasium or outdoor court can play. Plenty of people play basketball casually and still watch the professionals. Whether it's one of those "multi-game" streamers who plays everything, or a specialist in one game like Overwatch or CS:GO or Starcraft or Dota, if they're a good player it's often more fun to watch them than to get your own butt kicked online. Now imagine that the announcer is also one of the players, who is gleefully trash-talking the other team, sharing gossip, and telling entertaining stories, and you are also in a chat room where you can interact with everyone else watching the game, and the player will actually read your chats and respond to your questions. That's the appeal of streaming. It's fun.
nindalf 9y ago
Its literally the difference between watching pro sports and playing sports yourself. I think Dota is a great game and I could play it, but I'm not that good, especially when I'm not playing regularly. So I have the choice of playing it and watch myself air-ball abilities or watch the equivalent of Steph Curry score from the half-line and beyond. Think about it, its a competitive game where you're matched with players of equal skill, so you'll win exactly half your games. The ones you lose can be very frustrating, sometimes taking the pleasure away from playing the game. But if its someone else who's winning/losing, I don't mind.
- fokinsean 9y ago
  Exactly, I love watching Rocket League on twitch because I will never be that good. Just recently they had the championships and a few of my friends and I logged onto ps4, hopped in a party chat, and watched it "together". It was a lot of fun.
Yizahi 9y ago
I'm also baffled by the popularity of "watching other people play video games". I get it when there is some event or tournament, or when some part is particularly interesting but to do it for hours and hours and hours for years... I don't get it, probably too old.
empath75 9y ago
I watch hearthstone streams and tournaments pretty frequently, and I used to watch a lot of starcraft. It was 80% so I can watch people that are better than me at the game and pick up strategies, and like 20% entertainment.
romaniv 9y ago
>There are legions of people that watch these streams, just to watch someone doing something that they could do themselves (but maybe not win as much). This is an interesting comment. I watch couple of streamers regularly, but not in real-time. I just watch their content on YouTube. Why? Some of them actually put good effort into creating interesting in-game situations and running entertaining commentary. It's less of a reality show and more of a comedy/talk show. Maybe. Some of them are very good at the game, and watching the stream is an opportunity to learn something new. If the game is competitive, it sort of makes sense. But overall, I agree that streaming and YouTube are becoming the new TV. Maybe the motivations I outline above are somewhat pathological in the sense that they don't justify the time spent on such simplistic entertainment. A lot of videos are about competitive online games, and come to think of it the direct experience in those games isn't always great. For example, when you're watching a game on YouTube it's effectively per-selected. This way you can "skip" the games that are boring or have something broken or have annoying/rude players. You can cancel/pause at any time without loosing rank or annoying other people. In some ways it's a sad state of affairs. Games should be entertaining in their own right.
che_shirecat 9y ago
Popular streamers are entertainers. A video game is just an interesting and demographic-relevant medium. The only popular streamers that don't add commentary or have a video cam stream are the pros, the ones who play the game better than 99.9% of the rest.
XR0CSWV3h3kZWg 9y ago
I watch streamers every now and then, I mostly watched starcraft 2 and mostly watched during a time I played a lot. I played fairly competitively and committing to a ladder match is committing to anywhere from 5m to 1h. Playing a sc2 match is extremely demanding, if I wanted to engage with the game and make dinner at the same time the only option is to watch a stream. If I wanted to clean my room and engage with it, only option is stream. If a friend was coming over and I'd need to stop engaging with the game I'd be hesitant to start a match that could last an hour. Not to mention I wouldn't play if I was out of it in any way (sick, drunk, tired etc)
awad 9y ago
To answer the question, I would say yes that's often the case. Even very successful people, and perhaps especially very successful people, are prone to biases. It's hard to argue against your own biases, especially those that have done well by you. That being said, I don't "get it" insofar as it's not something I particularly want to do or partake of. But, plenty of my peers do and I can see that there is an appeal to them the way that watching professional sports is appealing to me. To each their own, right? If you rewind back enough, you'd laugh at the thought of 'professional' sports, as the concept of professionalism of games that children play was far-fetched.

flipp3r 9y ago

> Most of the kids watching these streams own a decent computer and can play. Youre making it sound not only as if only kids watch this, but also like playing any sport at all is so much different - and then compare it to Reality TV instead of live sports. Actual WTF? Some of the streamers (variety streamers) do play for just entertainment value, but most stick to just one game. A lot of it is also being able to live chat with other people watching and interact with the person streaming. > This isn't like F1 racing where I'll never be able to afford a racecar, or football where I don't want to exercise. Why isn't it like that? That's exactly what it is. Do you have any idea how long professional esports players competing in tournaments have to work, to stay at the top level? And do you think they can play at the same level on the average person's hardware? Have a look at Starcraft 2, Counter Strike Source, or Osu!. These are games where top players make 100+ strategic actions per minute, need to have lightning reaction speeds and accuracy, and make bursts of 10 actions per second for full minutes, respectively. How can it be such a shock to non-gamers that people watch other people play a game, rather than play it themselves? Just imagine it - people watching a game! /s It's exactly the same as every professional sport that has ever existed.

waterside81 9y ago
This is where I disagree, and I know I'm in the minority (clearly) by how popular streaming has become. Professional athletes are marvels because they look so much bigger, better and are faster than the average joe. That's their appeal - they're real-life super heroes. LeBron, Jordan, Ronaldo, Ali, Jim Brown - they guys are living, breathing physical specimens who can do what no normal person, no matter how much training, can accomplish. Video gamers, while no doubt skilled and dedicated to their craft, look like regular guys off the street. There's no wonderment. It's why nobody has the world chess champion as a poster on their door (or desktop background, whatever today's equivalent). Poker is popular on TV too, but ask a kid who they want to be when they grow up, Messi or Phil Ivy and I'm pretty sure I know the answer. This stuff is popular and more power to those who succeed, but I think it's unfair to just brush off people's bewilderment at the success of esports by trying to compare some 19 year old "esports athlete" to a proper athlete.
- ghthor 9y ago
  Faker from LOL Korea is more LeBron James to me than LeBron James, he is phenomenally talented. There are many others like him and many more like me that feel more connected an in awe of esports professionals than their traditional athletic analogues.
ansible 9y ago
Youre making it sound not only as if only kids watch this, but also like playing any sport at all is so much different - and then compare it to Reality TV instead of live sports. Now I've got my next business idea. Attach wireless streaming cameras to all the players in a sportsball game. Each player has a HUD, and can see chat messages in real time. Heck, for something like American Football, you could even have them vote on what play the opposing team is likely to do next. The player can take that under advisement, and maybe compliment a viewer when correct. To make more money, they viewers could bid on the predictions, which might help increase their accuracy. The player and the sport get a percentage of the bids, and the rest forms a prize pool for the most accurate bidders.
- jpgleeson 9y ago
  This is probably as close as you're going to get at this moment in time to what you're saying. This was posted here a few months ago, haven't checked back in to see how it's going for them a season later. http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2017/02/the_salt_lake_screaming_eagles_a_football_team_controlled_by_fans_with_smartphones.html http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2017/02/the_...
- Danihan 9y ago
  Actually a great idea, and this sort of "augmented viewing" will almost certainly happen sooner rather than later.
aluhut 9y ago
There is a difference between watching a E-Sports tournament and some let's play stream. As I understand it, OP talked about the former. As a gamer myself, I can say I feel exactly like him. I find most of it boring. I only scroll through those videos on youtube to see how the actual game looks like since Demos have been dead for a long time now (or you have to pay for them now). Additionally the annoying stuff happening around the video on twitch is repulsive. Especially the chat reminds me of those webchats on crappy 90s-style pages. On the other hand I do watch a tournament or some league play since german free tv started airing it.
joejev 9y ago
I love osu!, but there are no strategic actions, you just click the circles.
- flipp3r 9y ago
  Yeah that part was about Starcraft 2, for Osu! its the 10 actions per second bit. I've played long enough to know I shouldn't be playing it anymore.

noobhacker 9y ago

It's not so different from your own example of "football where [you] don't want to exercise." Many video games require skills and can be stressful to play [1] [2]. It's a lot more fun to watch people more skilled than you accomplishing admirable feats. This way, you get to experience the fun without the stress, the same way people watch pro-footballers without playing football. Also, people doing this aren't all kids. Dota and Starcraft are > 10-year-old games, and many people watching them are in their 30s. [1] Dota 2 https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/2nfzrx/how_to_overcome_ladder_anxiety_in_solo_ranked/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/2nfzrx/how_to_overco... [2] Starcraft 2 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Dealing_with_anxiety http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Dealing_with_anxiety

stryan 9y ago

From the article: >“That’s like saying to a chef, ‘Why are you watching the Food Network? Shouldn’t you be in the kitchen, cooking?’ > Or to an athlete, ‘Why are you watching ESPN? Shouldn’t you be out shooting hoops?’ > No. People enjoy watching others who are good at what they do.” I don't understand it much myself (and I watch streams semi-regularly) but it's not like this doesn't have precedent. People watch professional basketball when they could just go outside and start a pickup game. Sometimes you just want to experience the game/sport/etc without having to actually play it. Plus with Twitch streams you can watch how skilled players play and what strategies they use. Personally, I watch a lot of streams for that reason. Plus, often times high-level play is almost a different game from casual level;watching streams (or recordings of streams) is one of the few ways casual players can see that.

CocaKoala 9y ago
> Plus with Twitch streams you can watch how skilled players play and what strategies they use. Personally, I watch a lot of streams for that reason. Plus, often times high-level play is almost a different game from casual level;watching streams (or recordings of streams) is one of the few ways casual players can see that. That's a big part of it as well. Imagine if you could hang out on the side of the court and ask Stephen Curry questions while he practices. Ask him about the game last night, ask him why he took the shot that he did, why he drove instead of passing, what his practice regime is. You can play basketball with your friends if you want, or you can pick the brain of somebody who's incredible at it and get their advice, get their thoughts on the game.

SomeStupidPoint 9y ago

You're projecting your biases on what it takes to be a "professional athlete" versus a "professional gamer" -- both require serious amounts of on-going training to stay in top condition. You can afford a football, but recognize that (for some) it's more fun to watch highly skilled professionals play; yet, you seem unable to understand how others might feel the same way about gaming. I'm going to say that's probably "getting old" -- the inability to see how something is like something you already know, because it's new and strange to you.

nerdponx 9y ago

Most of the kids watching these streams own a decent computer and can play. The thing about a lot of these streamers is that they are both entertaining and talented gamers. In the Dota 2 community, watching the top players stream is actually a good way to keep up-to-date on the latest strategies and techniques, which is important is a game that's as complex as Dota. A lot of the community also converges in streams, which can be a good way to stay in touch with the latest gossip, memes, etc. Many sports fans do actually participate in their sport. Instead of football, consider basketball, which just about anyone with access to a gymnasium or outdoor court can play. Plenty of people play basketball casually and still watch the professionals. Whether it's one of those "multi-game" streamers who plays everything, or a specialist in one game like Overwatch or CS:GO or Starcraft or Dota, if they're a good player it's often more fun to watch them than to get your own butt kicked online. Now imagine that the announcer is also one of the players, who is gleefully trash-talking the other team, sharing gossip, and telling entertaining stories, and you are also in a chat room where you can interact with everyone else watching the game, and the player will actually read your chats and respond to your questions. That's the appeal of streaming. It's fun.

nindalf 9y ago

Its literally the difference between watching pro sports and playing sports yourself. I think Dota is a great game and I could play it, but I'm not that good, especially when I'm not playing regularly. So I have the choice of playing it and watch myself air-ball abilities or watch the equivalent of Steph Curry score from the half-line and beyond. Think about it, its a competitive game where you're matched with players of equal skill, so you'll win exactly half your games. The ones you lose can be very frustrating, sometimes taking the pleasure away from playing the game. But if its someone else who's winning/losing, I don't mind.

fokinsean 9y ago
Exactly, I love watching Rocket League on twitch because I will never be that good. Just recently they had the championships and a few of my friends and I logged onto ps4, hopped in a party chat, and watched it "together". It was a lot of fun.

Yizahi 9y ago

I'm also baffled by the popularity of "watching other people play video games". I get it when there is some event or tournament, or when some part is particularly interesting but to do it for hours and hours and hours for years... I don't get it, probably too old.

empath75 9y ago

I watch hearthstone streams and tournaments pretty frequently, and I used to watch a lot of starcraft. It was 80% so I can watch people that are better than me at the game and pick up strategies, and like 20% entertainment.

romaniv 9y ago

>There are legions of people that watch these streams, just to watch someone doing something that they could do themselves (but maybe not win as much). This is an interesting comment. I watch couple of streamers regularly, but not in real-time. I just watch their content on YouTube. Why? Some of them actually put good effort into creating interesting in-game situations and running entertaining commentary. It's less of a reality show and more of a comedy/talk show. Maybe. Some of them are very good at the game, and watching the stream is an opportunity to learn something new. If the game is competitive, it sort of makes sense. But overall, I agree that streaming and YouTube are becoming the new TV. Maybe the motivations I outline above are somewhat pathological in the sense that they don't justify the time spent on such simplistic entertainment. A lot of videos are about competitive online games, and come to think of it the direct experience in those games isn't always great. For example, when you're watching a game on YouTube it's effectively per-selected. This way you can "skip" the games that are boring or have something broken or have annoying/rude players. You can cancel/pause at any time without loosing rank or annoying other people. In some ways it's a sad state of affairs. Games should be entertaining in their own right.

che_shirecat 9y ago

Popular streamers are entertainers. A video game is just an interesting and demographic-relevant medium. The only popular streamers that don't add commentary or have a video cam stream are the pros, the ones who play the game better than 99.9% of the rest.

XR0CSWV3h3kZWg 9y ago

I watch streamers every now and then, I mostly watched starcraft 2 and mostly watched during a time I played a lot. I played fairly competitively and committing to a ladder match is committing to anywhere from 5m to 1h. Playing a sc2 match is extremely demanding, if I wanted to engage with the game and make dinner at the same time the only option is to watch a stream. If I wanted to clean my room and engage with it, only option is stream. If a friend was coming over and I'd need to stop engaging with the game I'd be hesitant to start a match that could last an hour. Not to mention I wouldn't play if I was out of it in any way (sick, drunk, tired etc)

awad 9y ago

To answer the question, I would say yes that's often the case. Even very successful people, and perhaps especially very successful people, are prone to biases. It's hard to argue against your own biases, especially those that have done well by you. That being said, I don't "get it" insofar as it's not something I particularly want to do or partake of. But, plenty of my peers do and I can see that there is an appeal to them the way that watching professional sports is appealing to me. To each their own, right? If you rewind back enough, you'd laugh at the thought of 'professional' sports, as the concept of professionalism of games that children play was far-fetched.